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Using Thunderbird for Usenet

R

Roger Mills

Flightless Bird
Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
from the same stable - and free!

Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
mainly geared towards use as an email client.

Specifically, I need to know:
- How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
- How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
- How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
time I read a group) are displayed

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
On 22/05/2010 15:55, Roger Mills wrote:

> Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
> and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
> Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
> from the same stable - and free!
>
> Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
> users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
> be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
> mainly geared towards use as an email client.

There is a little bit here:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Newsgroup_access_tips#Thunderbird

> Specifically, I need to know:
> - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red

You can manually tag (and colour) a post with a tap of the numbers 1 to
5. You can add a star to a message with S. You can set a thread to
"watched" with a w. Watching is quite handy because you can easily
filter on it later.

(these are all on the message menu as well)

> - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group

Right click - Mark as all read

> - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
> time I read a group) are displayed

View | Threads | unread

> Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Filters are worth using as well. You can make life greatly easier. So
for example I have a filter that recognised my posts and colours them
green, and sets the watch flag on the thread they appear in. That way I
can set View | Threads | Watched with unread - and see just the threads
I have participated in that have new messages.

You can obviously colour other posters as you see fit. I have one that
sets dribble to "read" on arrival - since reading one post is much like
any of the others!

(generally, anything you can do manually can also be done with a filter)

Kill a thread with K (it will be marked at the time, and will have
vanished next time you return to the group). Kill a sub thread with shift K.



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
A

Andy Burns

Flightless Bird
Roger Mills wrote:

> - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red

Press '1' when a message has focus to tag it as important, that single
message will show in red, press 'W' to watch a thread.

> - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group

No option for that, try the "Mark All Read Button" add-on

> - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
> time I read a group) are displayed

Right click your toolbar, customise, drag the 'mail views' widget onto
some empty space in the toolbar, then you can easily switch filters for
'all, 'unread' and custom filters you create yourself such as 'replied
to', 'last 24hours' etc
 
B

BillW50

Flightless Bird
In news:85q9j1Fg12U2@mid.individual.net,
Roger Mills typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100:
> Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the
> bullet and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have
> opted for Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a
> browser, and it's from the same stable - and free!
>
> Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
> users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem
> to be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which
> seems mainly geared towards use as an email client.
>
> Specifically, I need to know:
> - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
> - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a
> group - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since
> the
> last time I read a group) are displayed
>
> Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Hello Roger! I have been using Thunderbird for many years and I still
like Outlook Express v6 with OE-QuoteFix far better. At least for
newsgroups. And no newsreader except OE has the "Show Replies to my
Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Which IMHO makes everything else so bad as a
newsreader. As I think this should be a feature on all newsreaders. But
I guess the other programmers just don't get it.

Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you can
mark them with a Star. Another option is by marking them with a flag (I
think there are 5 different default type of flags). And flags you can
change the color of the header. Kind of like OE.

I am not sure if you can make a newsgroup as read when you exit. I know
you can mark it as read manually. And I remember you should be able to
show only the unread messages under TB. Btw, TB has been released to
different versions. I believe the popular ones are v1.5, v2.0, and v3.0.
And depending on which one you are using, the answers maybe different. I
actually like 2.0 the best, but I also like 1.5 too.

I think this newsgroup maybe able to help you for the questions we here
can't give you.

netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
On 22/05/2010 16:40, BillW50 wrote:

> Hello Roger! I have been using Thunderbird for many years and I still
> like Outlook Express v6 with OE-QuoteFix far better. At least for
> newsgroups. And no newsreader except OE has the "Show Replies to my
> Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Which IMHO makes everything else so bad as a
> newsreader. As I think this should be a feature on all newsreaders. But
> I guess the other programmers just don't get it.

The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some of
the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not quite
as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a little
time learning what they can do.

So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to which
you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads) you get get
pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n" (next) will take
you to each unread new post in a thread you have either started or
replied to.

> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you can

<panto mode>

Oh yes it does!

</panto mode>

> mark them with a Star. Another option is by marking them with a flag (I

Or mark it as watched with a w

> think there are 5 different default type of flags). And flags you can
> change the color of the header. Kind of like OE.

You can add additional flags if you want.

> I am not sure if you can make a newsgroup as read when you exit. I know
> you can mark it as read manually. And I remember you should be able to
> show only the unread messages under TB. Btw, TB has been released to
> different versions. I believe the popular ones are v1.5, v2.0, and v3.0.
> And depending on which one you are using, the answers maybe different. I
> actually like 2.0 the best, but I also like 1.5 too.

There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.

> I think this newsgroup maybe able to help you for the questions we here
> can't give you.
>
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
B

BillW50

Flightless Bird
In news:HcOdnQWXddx1lWXWnZ2dnUVZ7rKdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk,
John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 17:40:09 +0100:
> On 22/05/2010 16:40, BillW50 wrote:
>
>> Hello Roger! I have been using Thunderbird for many years and I still
>> like Outlook Express v6 with OE-QuoteFix far better. At least for
>> newsgroups. And no newsreader except OE has the "Show Replies to my
>> Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Which IMHO makes everything else so bad as a
>> newsreader. As I think this should be a feature on all newsreaders.
>> But I guess the other programmers just don't get it.
>
> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some of
> the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not quite
> as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a little
> time learning what they can do.

Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE "Show
Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?

> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads) you
> get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n" (next)
> will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have either
> started or replied to.

That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread should
be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message, read or not.
And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward, next
unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for all
version of TB either. How dumb can you get?

>> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
>> can
>
> <panto mode>
>
> Oh yes it does!
>
> </panto mode>

The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old
mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making things
as difficult as possible.

Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and very
difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the same. I
guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already retired. I
guess nobody writes great software anymore.

>> mark them with a Star. Another option is by marking them with a flag
>> (I
>
> Or mark it as watched with a w
>
>> think there are 5 different default type of flags). And flags you can
>> change the color of the header. Kind of like OE.
>
> You can add additional flags if you want.
>
>> I am not sure if you can make a newsgroup as read when you exit. I
>> know you can mark it as read manually. And I remember you should be
>> able to show only the unread messages under TB. Btw, TB has been
>> released to different versions. I believe the popular ones are v1.5,
>> v2.0, and v3.0. And depending on which one you are using, the
>> answers maybe different. I actually like 2.0 the best, but I also
>> like 1.5 too.
>
> There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
> some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
> searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.

V3 is the worse version of TB to date! Bloated and slow just like it's
brother called Firefox. Must be the same dang programmers. Or at least
party together or something. At least FF gets security updates. As they
don't bother with TB.

>> I think this newsgroup maybe able to help you for the questions we
>> here can't give you.
>>
>> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
 
B

Bruce

Flightless Bird
On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100, Roger Mills <watt.tyler@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
>and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
>Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
>from the same stable - and free!
>
>Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
>users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
>be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
>mainly geared towards use as an email client.
>
>Specifically, I need to know:
>- How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
>- How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
>- How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
>time I read a group) are displayed
>
>Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.


I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.

Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
to the current version.

While Agent must be paid for ($29.00, or slightly less than £20.00),
there is a free 30 day trial so you can see if you like it. If you
can manage with Thunderbird, that's fine, but if not, you might like
to give Agent a try.

http://www.forteinc.com/

By the way, I use Agent only for news, but you can also configure it
for email.
 
T

Tim Watts

Flightless Bird
On 22/05/10 20:48, Bruce wrote:

>
> I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
> stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
> for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
>
> Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
> latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
> understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
> to the current version.

I used Agent about 12 years back - and it was good then too. I quite
liked it. However as I use Linux it's a bit of a non starter (never have
been arsed to fiddle with Wine).

Thunderbird isn't as good as the good bits of knode (filtering,
highlighting) but it does mean one less program open (I use it for email
too) and I like the fact it can open basic URLs too from USENET, and I
do like the "ignore subthread" open. My killfile is set to ignore
subthreads from those killed as that's usually where the flamewares
spawn and stay burning...

I must get round to understanding plugin programming - there are a few
things I'd like to tweak...


--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
On 22/05/2010 20:09, BillW50 wrote:

>> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some of
>> the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not quite
>> as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a little
>> time learning what they can do.
>
> Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
> when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE "Show
> Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?

Watched threads with unread works nicely for me...

>> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
>> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads) you
>> get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n" (next)
>> will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have either
>> started or replied to.
>
> That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread should
> be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message, read or not.

So change the default key bindings if it bothers you that much.

> And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward, next
> unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for all
> version of TB either. How dumb can you get?

Dumb would be complaining that a feature you want is missing, when its
been standard for ages, and the only reason you have not noticed is you
are using an insecure, non supported, out of date version.

I bet OE 4 does not do everything that you want either, why not complain
about that?

>
>>> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
>>> can
>>
>> <panto mode>
>>
>> Oh yes it does!
>>
>> </panto mode>
>
> The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
> takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old

Watched threads have been about for ages...

> mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
> inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making things
> as difficult as possible.

Na, I think they just like to tease you.

> Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and very
> difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the same. I

Starting? They invented code bloat!

> guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already retired. I

Most of MS's better products were not written by them anyway!

> guess nobody writes great software anymore.

Depends on what you want I guess.

>> There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
>> some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
>> searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.
>
> V3 is the worse version of TB to date! Bloated and slow just like it's
> brother called Firefox. Must be the same dang programmers. Or at least
> party together or something. At least FF gets security updates. As they
> don't bother with TB.

Yup, I mean TB 2 which is not even the current version has only had 24
point releases. Remember the last update for OE? (don't think MS ever
got round to making it quote properly)


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Flightless Bird
Roger Mills wrote:
> Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
> and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
> Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
> from the same stable - and free!
>
> Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
> users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
> be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
> mainly geared towards use as an email client.
>
> Specifically, I need to know:
> - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red

pass.
> - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group

right click on newgroup in main pane and select 'mark all read'

> - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
> time I read a group) are displayed
>


Try my settings, view by thread and view display unread only.


> Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
 
B

BillW50

Flightless Bird
In news:A-SdnZeIKa7_wmXWnZ2dnUVZ8rCdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk,
John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 23:49:06 +0100:
> On 22/05/2010 20:09, BillW50 wrote:
>
>>> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some
>>> of the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not
>>> quite as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a
>>> little time learning what they can do.
>>
>> Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
>> when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE
>> "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?
>
> Watched threads with unread works nicely for me...

I am sure, but nothing as simple as CTRL-H does. I am sure a lab rat
running through a maze that doesn't change to find food works nicely for
them too. But humans are not lab rats and we have more important things
to do to use our intelligence and time than running through mazes.

>>> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
>>> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads)
>>> you get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n"
>>> (next) will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have
>>> either started or replied to.
>>
>> That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread
>> should be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message,
>> read or not.
>
> So change the default key bindings if it bothers you that much.

Use your head. Both new and next start with "n". That isn't good. One of
them needs to be changed. And since unread next can be remembered easily
with "u". The problem is solved. But morons at Mozilla can't be bothered
with solutions. What is wrong with most programmers? They want to treat
everybody as lab rats. I am sorry, but most people are smarter than
that. Okay one or two are not, but that is another story.

>> And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward,
>> next unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for
>> all version of TB either. How dumb can you get?
>
> Dumb would be complaining that a feature you want is missing, when its
> been standard for ages, and the only reason you have not noticed is
> you are using an insecure, non supported, out of date version.

Nope, "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view has been missing from
Thunderbird since day one. Hopefully when TB v4 comes out they will
finally get it. Well maybe it will take until TB v6 you think?

> I bet OE 4 does not do everything that you want either, why not
> complain about that?

Before OE4 there was Microsoft Mail and News v1.0. And the only
competitor was Netscape back then. And when IE4 / OE4 came out they
buried Netscape into darkness. And if it wasn't for AOL buying them out,
there won't be any Thunderbird or Firefox today. And Mozilla has it so
easy with Thunderbird, as OE is no more. Yet they still can't match OE6
while it is sitting still. I can hire lab rats today and still beat
Mozilla. That is really sad.

>>>> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
>>>> can
>>>
>>> <panto mode>
>>>
>>> Oh yes it does!
>>>
>>> </panto mode>
>>
>> The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
>> takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old
>
> Watched threads have been about for ages...

No it hasn't!

>> mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
>> inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making
>> things as difficult as possible.
>
> Na, I think they just like to tease you.

Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats, eh? I started as an
electronic engineer back in the 70's. I only programmed too since there
wasn't any programmers worth a darn back then. Well it wasn't their
entire fault, since hardware was changing like crazy back then and you
had to be an electronic engineer to keep up with it all. By the mid 80's
hardware started to stabilize and there was programmers that started
writing code better than I could. So I quit and stuck with electronic
engineering.

Now all of these people are retiring and the ones replacing them are
mostly clueless. The newer generation just doesn't get it. Don't expect
people to act like lab rats. Doing so we only create less and less
people using your product. And Netscape (aka Mozilla) are making the
very same mistakes they did a decade ago. They just really don't get it!

>> Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and
>> very difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the
>> same. I
>
> Starting? They invented code bloat!

Wishfully thinking. As MS-DOS v6 was only like 6MB in size. Windows 95
was only 25MB for a full install. The OS wasn't the big thing, but
applications got bloated. I have some programs here right now that
requires at least 1GB of RAM for itself. Heck Acronis True Image itself
eats up like 170MB when it isn't even running.

>> guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already
>> retired. I
>
> Most of MS's better products were not written by them anyway!

Microsoft always had to fix that crap first. As those products were
worthless as is. As if they were worth anything, they didn't need
Microsoft to bale them out in the first place. Heck Apple would have
been history today if Microsoft didn't bale them out too.

>> guess nobody writes great software anymore.
>
> Depends on what you want I guess.

Great software like we used to have. I am not asking too much I don't
think.

>>> There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
>>> some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
>>> searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.
>>
>> V3 is the worse version of TB to date! Bloated and slow just like
>> it's brother called Firefox. Must be the same dang programmers. Or
>> at least party together or something. At least FF gets security
>> updates. As they don't bother with TB.
>
> Yup, I mean TB 2 which is not even the current version has only had 24
> point releases. Remember the last update for OE? (don't think MS ever
> got round to making it quote properly)

For starters, no version of TB ever worked properly. And even if it is
true that v2 had 24 point releases, they still purposely stopped adding
more in a timely matter:

Mozilla plugs 13 holes in Firefox, retires older 2.0 browser
by Gregg Keizer, Computerworld
Dec 17, 2008 12:28 pm
http://www.macworld.com/article/137607/firefox.html

The site is gone and the Wayback Machine doesn't have a copy of it. But
I save all of this stuff. And it once said:

"Mozilla Messaging's Thunderbird e-mail client, which relies on the
Firefox rendering engine for JavaScript and other functionality, was not
patched Tuesday. It remains at Version 2.0.0.18. Until Thunderbird
catches up -- an update is expected in early January -- users can
protect themselves against the related Firefox vulnerabilities by
disabling JavaScript in the e-mail program."

It is very clear to me that Mozilla doesn't consider acThunderbird as a
serious product. As they will get around to fixing it when they get
around to it. Unfortunately they are always a day late and a dollar
short. No news there. Netscape was exactly the same way. Thus some
things never change at all.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
 
A

Andy Burns

Flightless Bird
BillW50 wrote:

> a lab rat running through a maze

> humans are not lab rats

> treat everybody as lab rats

> I can hire lab rats

> Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats

> Don't expect people to act like lab rats

It may not be perfect but I, for one, am glad that TB is freely
available (as in speech), you're welcome to stick to your free OE (as
in beer).

No wonder I avoid the big8 and alt groups these days and stick to a
handful of uk groups; someone ungrateful sod like you with an exe to
grind seems to pops whenever a message is xposted left of the pond ...
 
B

Bruce

Flightless Bird
On Sat, 22 May 2010 21:55:55 +0100, Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net> wrote:
>On 22/05/10 20:48, Bruce wrote:
>> I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
>> stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
>> for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
>>
>> Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
>> latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
>> understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
>> to the current version.
>
>I used Agent about 12 years back - and it was good then too. I quite
>liked it.


I think that's called "damning with faint praise".
 
T

tony sayer

Flightless Bird
In article <7pcgv5dfc9d45pg029i69jom6jkn6207no@4ax.com>, Bruce
<docnews2011@gmail.com> scribeth thus
>On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100, Roger Mills <watt.tyler@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
>>and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
>>Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
>>from the same stable - and free!
>>
>>Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
>>users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
>>be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
>>mainly geared towards use as an email client.
>>
>>Specifically, I need to know:
>>- How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
>>- How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
>>- How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
>>time I read a group) are displayed
>>
>>Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
>stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
>for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
>
>Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
>latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
>understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
>to the current version.
>
>While Agent must be paid for ($29.00, or slightly less than £20.00),
>there is a free 30 day trial so you can see if you like it. If you
>can manage with Thunderbird, that's fine, but if not, you might like
>to give Agent a try.
>
>http://www.forteinc.com/
>
>By the way, I use Agent only for news, but you can also configure it
>for email.
>
>

I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
better as yet;!.....
--
Tony Sayer
 
G

Graeme

Flightless Bird
In message <Ycw1JXADiS+LFwFV@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
<tony@bancom.co.uk> writes

>I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
>anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
>better as yet;!

Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
with W7.

The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.

Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the
others?

--
Graeme
 
B

BillW50

Flightless Bird
On 5/23/2010 1:42 AM, Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 07:42:17 +0100:
> BillW50 wrote:
>
>> a lab rat running through a maze
>
>> humans are not lab rats
>
>> treat everybody as lab rats
>
>> I can hire lab rats
>
>> Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats
>
>> Don't expect people to act like lab rats
>
> It may not be perfect but I, for one, am glad that TB is freely
> available (as in speech), you're welcome to stick to your free OE (as in
> beer).
>
> No wonder I avoid the big8 and alt groups these days and stick to a
> handful of uk groups; someone ungrateful sod like you with an exe to
> grind seems to pops whenever a message is xposted left of the pond ...

Oh I see! We Thunderbird users are not allowed to give our opinion when
the likes of you are around. As we must be thankful and grateful for the
tiny crumbs that Mozilla has given us.

You know, some companies actually do listen to their customers and
improve their software. Some other companies doesn't care what their
customers think. And they want you to feel grateful for the crumbs they
hand out.

And I have no axe to grind either. I am just saying it as it is. If you
have a problem with anything I said, feel free to correct me. So far
though, you have not corrected me on one single thing yet. Why not? And
if you don't have any evidence to the contrary, then what is the problem?

--
Bill
Thunderbird 3.0
 
G

geoff

Flightless Bird
In message <xxNgOiBX6T+LFwTT@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Graeme
<Graeme@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <Ycw1JXADiS+LFwFV@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
><tony@bancom.co.uk> writes
>
>>I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
>>anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
>>better as yet;!
>
>Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
>7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
>with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will
>arrive with W7.

It works with 32 bit, just not the 64 bit version



>
>The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
>specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
>Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.
>
>Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
>three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
>performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the others?
>

--
geoff
 
R

Rod

Flightless Bird
On 23/05/2010 15:41, Graeme wrote:
> In message <Ycw1JXADiS+LFwFV@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
> <tony@bancom.co.uk> writes
>
>> I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
>> anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
>> better as yet;!
>
> Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
> 7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
> with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
> with W7.
>
> The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
> specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
> Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.
>
> Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
> three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
> performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the others?
>
Thunderbird will thread Yahoo emails (I get individual emails of all
posts for the groups I am interested in). Trouble is that so many people
post in ways that mean they are not threaded even viewed within the
group. Thins like starting a new topic by replying to an existing post
and changing the subject. Or just posting a disconnected message without
making any attempt to place it in a thread.

--
Rod
 
T

tony sayer

Flightless Bird
In article <xxNgOiBX6T+LFwTT@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Graeme
<Graeme@nospam.demon.co.uk> scribeth thus
>In message <Ycw1JXADiS+LFwFV@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
><tony@bancom.co.uk> writes
>
>>I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
>>anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
>>better as yet;!
>
>Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
>7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
>with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
>with W7.
>

Windoze 7 what's that;?...

>The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
>specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
>Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.

Never bothered with Yahoo groups as such the ones I use are all sent via
e-mail..

>
>Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
>three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
>performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the
>others?
>
Never tried it but I reckon you can do it..
--
Tony Sayer
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
On 23/05/2010 03:26, BillW50 wrote:
> In news:A-SdnZeIKa7_wmXWnZ2dnUVZ8rCdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk,
> John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 23:49:06 +0100:
>> On 22/05/2010 20:09, BillW50 wrote:
>>
>>>> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some
>>>> of the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not
>>>> quite as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a
>>>> little time learning what they can do.
>>>
>>> Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
>>> when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE
>>> "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?
>>
>> Watched threads with unread works nicely for me...
>
> I am sure, but nothing as simple as CTRL-H does. I am sure a lab rat
> running through a maze that doesn't change to find food works nicely for
> them too. But humans are not lab rats and we have more important things
> to do to use our intelligence and time than running through mazes.

There are folks out there who insist that [teco | EDT | Emacs | TPU | WS
]... are the only sensible key bindings as devised by God himself. So
basically any choice a programmer makes will be wrong for some people.
The better programmers allow for the end user to change the key
bindings, so that if it really is an issue for a particular user then
the user can change it.

However even that will not please some users, since they expect it to
work in their preferred way (even when that may be less intuitive for
the majority) and don't see why they should use the tools provided to
configure it the way they want.

Not sure what one does about them.

>>>> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
>>>> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads)
>>>> you get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n"
>>>> (next) will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have
>>>> either started or replied to.
>>>
>>> That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread
>>> should be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message,
>>> read or not.
>>
>> So change the default key bindings if it bothers you that much.
>
> Use your head. Both new and next start with "n". That isn't good. One of
> them needs to be changed. And since unread next can be remembered easily
> with "u". The problem is solved. But morons at Mozilla can't be bothered

So change next unread to u and forward to n and you are done. What's the
problem.

Most folks are probably happy with n for next since its the option they
will use most.

> with solutions. What is wrong with most programmers? They want to treat
> everybody as lab rats. I am sorry, but most people are smarter than
> that. Okay one or two are not, but that is another story.

So when they give you user definable menus, button bars, shortcuts etc,
in fact complete flexibility to tailor something to your needs, you
think you are being treated as a lab rat?

>>> And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward,
>>> next unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for
>>> all version of TB either. How dumb can you get?
>>
>> Dumb would be complaining that a feature you want is missing, when its
>> been standard for ages, and the only reason you have not noticed is
>> you are using an insecure, non supported, out of date version.
>
> Nope, "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view has been missing from

Woa!, you seem to have lost the thread. We are talking about having back
and forward buttons and reading news while controlling the app with the
mouse (you can lay CTRL-H to bed for a bit now).

Thunderbird has these capabilities now so the fact that at some point in
the past it did not is not relevant to this discussion.

> Thunderbird since day one. Hopefully when TB v4 comes out they will
> finally get it. Well maybe it will take until TB v6 you think?

I think its pretty good now. Certainly not perfect, but quite usable.

OE however is a liability and should be avoided IMHO. The fact that it
uses a proprietary binary file format, combined with its bug that
trashes its mail store when a file reaches et 2 gig boundary, alone is
enough to preclude its use in my book. Being tied to the IE6 render
engine and the fact that that is now end of life also precludes it as a
sensible choice.

>> I bet OE 4 does not do everything that you want either, why not
>> complain about that?
>
> Before OE4 there was Microsoft Mail and News v1.0. And the only
> competitor was Netscape back then. And when IE4 / OE4 came out they
> buried Netscape into darkness. And if it wasn't for AOL buying them out,
> there won't be any Thunderbird or Firefox today. And Mozilla has it so
> easy with Thunderbird, as OE is no more. Yet they still can't match OE6
> while it is sitting still. I can hire lab rats today and still beat
> Mozilla. That is really sad.

You seem to be rambling. Perhaps the implicit assumption that TB should
emulate or be more like OE is the problem. I expect a good deal of the
user base would not see that as a desirable goal.

>> Watched threads have been about for ages...
>
> No it hasn't!

They have been supported since before V2, and that has been out over
three years. It was also in 1.5 IIRC.

>>> mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
>>> inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making
>>> things as difficult as possible.
>>
>> Na, I think they just like to tease you.
>
> Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats, eh? I started as an
> electronic engineer back in the 70's. I only programmed too since there
> wasn't any programmers worth a darn back then. Well it wasn't their
> entire fault, since hardware was changing like crazy back then and you
> had to be an electronic engineer to keep up with it all. By the mid 80's
> hardware started to stabilize and there was programmers that started
> writing code better than I could. So I quit and stuck with electronic
> engineering.
>
> Now all of these people are retiring and the ones replacing them are
> mostly clueless. The newer generation just doesn't get it. Don't expect
> people to act like lab rats. Doing so we only create less and less
> people using your product. And Netscape (aka Mozilla) are making the
> very same mistakes they did a decade ago. They just really don't get it!
>
>>> Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and
>>> very difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the
>>> same. I
>>
>> Starting? They invented code bloat!
>
> Wishfully thinking. As MS-DOS v6 was only like 6MB in size. Windows 95

And did what CP/M+ did in < 1MB

> was only 25MB for a full install. The OS wasn't the big thing, but

And was vastly inferior to the the fully real time and multi tasking QNX
at under 1.4MB compressed onto a single floppy.

> applications got bloated. I have some programs here right now that
> requires at least 1GB of RAM for itself. Heck Acronis True Image itself
> eats up like 170MB when it isn't even running.

Well to an extent we the end users have elected to have it that way. We
want software cheaply, which means dealing with the complexity of modern
hardware and OS's in a sufficiently short time-scale to bring products
to market. That means extensive reuse of code and application frameworks
etc. The days of the individual coding the whole app in assembler are
long since gone. So it takes a bit more ram - spend £20 and add another
gig.

>>> guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already
>>> retired. I
>>
>> Most of MS's better products were not written by them anyway!
>
> Microsoft always had to fix that crap first. As those products were

Hardly - excel was bought in basically working and just needed
rebranding. Foxpro was lightly warmed over before shipping as a MS
product (and stripping the core DB engine for use in access later)

WinNT was effective a re-writing of VMS by the former DEC OS team, and
had little in common with Win9X beyond a tweaked version of the API
glued on top.

> worthless as is. As if they were worth anything, they didn't need
> Microsoft to bale them out in the first place. Heck Apple would have
> been history today if Microsoft didn't bale them out too.
>
>>> guess nobody writes great software anymore.
>>
>> Depends on what you want I guess.
>
> Great software like we used to have. I am not asking too much I don't
> think.

Such as?

> It is very clear to me that Mozilla doesn't consider acThunderbird as a
> serious product. As they will get around to fixing it when they get

They have limited resources and have to chose carefully where to spend
those. TB was a less important target the FF - I am sure Moz would agree
with that appraisal.

> around to it. Unfortunately they are always a day late and a dollar
> short. No news there. Netscape was exactly the same way. Thus some
> things never change at all.

Netscape were not always in that situation. Then again they did have to
content with a competitor attempting to put them out of business[1]
using every trick in the book (legal or otherwise).

Note, not by producing a better product either. Bus still that is old
history.

--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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