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WinXP Instant Shutdown

P

Paul Calcagno

Flightless Bird
I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
resident on my Compaq laptop.
Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer does
an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is completely
off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This `shutdown'
doesn't always happen.
What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power". The
only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is there
anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be off
when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive cause this
kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and if so, how do I
access them on my XP machine?

Paul C.
 
D

DL

Flightless Bird
Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer
Overheating could cause an instant shutdown

"Paul Calcagno" <pcalcagno@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eWKGODtvKHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
> resident on my Compaq laptop.
> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer does
> an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
> completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This
> `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".
> The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is there
> anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be off
> when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive cause
> this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and if so,
> how do I access them on my XP machine?
>
> Paul C.
 
J

John John - MVP

Flightless Bird
Paul Calcagno wrote:
> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS,
> CCleaner resident on my Compaq laptop.
> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
> completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine.
> This `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on
> Power tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save
> power". The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a
> restart. Is there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
> off when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive
> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?


To open the Event Viewer enter eventvwr.msc in the Start menu Run box.
Look for events in the System log.

The symptom is is consistent with heat or PSU problems, if so there
won't be anything relevant showing in the event log.

John
 
J

Jose

Flightless Bird
On Mar 8, 10:05 am, "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
> resident on my Compaq laptop.
> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer does
> an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is completely
> off.  Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This `shutdown'
> doesn't always happen.
> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".  The
> only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is there
> anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be off
> when it seems like it should be on.  Would overheating the drive cause this
> kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and if so, how do I
> access them on my XP machine?
>
> Paul C.


Yeah - overheating will not generally put an event in the log, but you
can check the logs for clues. If I force my system to overheat, it
does beep from the motherboard to warn me though (this is
configurable). Do you have any beeps?

Does it start right back up and keep working without a cooling off
period?

Here are some specific things to do that will eliminate guessing or
"trying" things. I would not be trying things.

Minimize back and forth Q&A and eliminate guesswork and assumptions:

Click Start, Run and in the box enter:

msinfo32

Click OK, and when the System Summary info appears, click Edit, Select
All, Copy and then paste back here.

There will be some personal information (like System Name and User
Name), and whatever appears to be private information to you, just
delete from the pasted information.

Reduce the chances of malicious software by running some scans.

Download, install, update and do a full scan with these free malware
detection programs:

Malwarebytes (MBAM): http://malwarebytes.org/
SUPERAntiSpyware: (SAS): http://www.superantispyware.com/

These can be uninstalled later if desired.


Look in the Event Viewer for clues around the time of the incident

Here is a method to post the specific information about individual
events.

To see the Event Viewer logs, click Start, Settings, Control Panel,
Administrative Tools, Event Viewer.

A shortcut to Event Viewer is to click Start, Run and in the box
enter:

%SystemRoot%\system32\eventvwr.msc /s

Click OK to launch the Event Viewer.

The most interesting logs are usually the Application and System.
Some logs may be almost or completely empty.
Not every event is a problem, some are informational messages that
things are working okay and some are warnings.
No event should defy reasonable explanation.

Each event is sorted by Date and Time. Errors will have red Xs,
Warnings will have yellow !s.
Information messages have white is. Not every Error or Warning event
means there is a serious issue.
Some are excusable at startup time when Windows is booting. Try to
find just the events at the date
and time around your problem.

If you double click an event, it will open a Properties windows with
more information. On the right are
black up and down arrow buttons to scroll through the open events. The
third button that looks like
two pages on top of each other is used to copy the event details to
your Windows clipboard.

When you find an interesting event that occurred around the time of
your issue, click the third button
under the up and down arrows to copy the details and then you can
paste the details (right click, Paste
or CTRL-V) the detail text back here for analysis.

To get a fresh start on any Event Viewer log, you can choose to clear
the log (backing up the log is offered),
then reproduce your issue, then look at just the events around the
time of your issue.
 
J

Jose

Flightless Bird
On Mar 8, 10:05 am, "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
> resident on my Compaq laptop.
> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer does
> an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is completely
> off.  Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This `shutdown'
> doesn't always happen.
> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".  The
> only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is there
> anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be off
> when it seems like it should be on.  Would overheating the drive cause this
> kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and if so, how do I
> access them on my XP machine?
>
> Paul C.


To eliminate the question of wondering if you need to restart after
making some changes... restart.
 
P

Paul

Flightless Bird
Paul Calcagno wrote:
> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS,
> CCleaner resident on my Compaq laptop.
> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
> completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine.
> This `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on
> Power tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save
> power". The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a
> restart. Is there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
> off when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive
> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?
>
> Paul C.


Modern processors are protected by THERMTRIP. Once the CPU gets
over a critical temperature, THERMTRIP causes the computer to
switch off instantly. There is no time for any log entry, if
that is the nature of the problem. Such a shutdown does not
involve software at all, and it doesn't get a say in the matter.

Also, if the computer is getting that hot, the heat might not
be good for the battery. The battery lasts longer, if the ambient
temperature stays a bit lower.

I would check the vent on the machine, to see if it is free of
dust bunnies. If you have pets, that only increases the odds
it is a problem with the vent.

If you use a program like Speedfan (almico.com), you may be
able to monitor the CPU temperature.

It could be, that you have two fans, and one of the fans has
stopped entirely.

Paul
 
P

Paul Calcagno

Flightless Bird
DL, when I try "Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer" the list of
tools is empy. Paul C

"DL" <notvalid@spoofaddress.co.uk> wrote in message
news:#rH1cItvKHA.812@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer
> Overheating could cause an instant shutdown
>
> "Paul Calcagno" <pcalcagno@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:eWKGODtvKHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
>> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
>> resident on my Compaq laptop.
>> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
>> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
>> completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This
>> `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
>> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
>> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".
>> The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is
>> there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
>> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
>> off when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive
>> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
>> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?
>>
>> Paul C.

>
>
 
P

Paul Calcagno

Flightless Bird
Thanks Paul. See my comments within your text below. Paul C.

"Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
news:hn3b6v$ftv$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> Paul Calcagno wrote:
>> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
>> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
>> resident on my Compaq laptop.
>> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
>> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
>> completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine. This
>> `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
>> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
>> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".
>> The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is
>> there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
>> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
>> off when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the drive
>> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
>> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?
>>
>> Paul C.

>
> Modern processors are protected by THERMTRIP. Once the CPU gets
> over a critical temperature, THERMTRIP causes the computer to
> switch off instantly. There is no time for any log entry, if
> that is the nature of the problem. Such a shutdown does not
> involve software at all, and it doesn't get a say in the matter.
>
> Also, if the computer is getting that hot, the heat might not
> be good for the battery. The battery lasts longer, if the ambient
> temperature stays a bit lower.

The battery's at the other end of the laptop so I doubt it's seeing
much of the heat.
>
> I would check the vent on the machine, to see if it is free of
> dust bunnies. If you have pets, that only increases the odds
> it is a problem with the vent.

I've cleaned out the vent and the fan fairly recently. It seems that
sometimes if I poke the fan (with a paperclip) it will start up. Doesn't do
this all the time and I can hear it running at different speeds.
>
> If you use a program like Speedfan (almico.com), you may be
> able to monitor the CPU temperature.
>
> It could be, that you have two fans, and one of the fans has
> stopped entirely.

Only one fan.
>
> Paul
 
J

Jose

Flightless Bird
On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> DL, when I try "Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer" the listof
> tools is empy.  Paul C
>
> "DL" <notva...@spoofaddress.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:#rH1cItvKHA.812@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
>
>
> > Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer
> > Overheating could cause an instant shutdown

>
> > "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:eWKGODtvKHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> >> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> >> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
> >> resident on my Compaq laptop.
> >> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
> >> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
> >> completely off.  Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine.This
> >> `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
> >> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
> >> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".
> >> The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is
> >> there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> >> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
> >> off when it seems like it should be on.  Would overheating the drive
> >> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
> >> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?

>
> >> Paul C.


That is a different problem

One still missing piece of information we would have if you respond
appropriately is what kind of Compaq laptop.

If you would respond to my other queries, we will have the information
needed to troubleshoot effectively. We would know how many fans you
have and it they should be running all the time or not and maybe even
where to poke it if it needs poking...

Dust bunnies? I got your dust bunnies right here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/13/ventblockers/print.html
 
J

Jose

Flightless Bird
On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> DL, when I try "Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer" the listof
> tools is empy.  Paul C
>
> "DL" <notva...@spoofaddress.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:#rH1cItvKHA.812@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
>
>
> > Control Panel>Adminastrative Tools>Event Viewer
> > Overheating could cause an instant shutdown

>
> > "Paul Calcagno" <pcalca...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:eWKGODtvKHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> >> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
> >> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS, CCleaner
> >> resident on my Compaq laptop.
> >> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
> >> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer is
> >> completely off.  Pushing the power on button brings it up just fine.This
> >> `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
> >> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on Power
> >> tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save power".
> >> The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a restart. Is
> >> there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
> >> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to be
> >> off when it seems like it should be on.  Would overheating the drive
> >> cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show anything and
> >> if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?

>
> >> Paul C.


Here is how to resolve missing Administrative Tools.

However, if your system has malicious software present, this may not
work or may not work for long:

http://windowsxp.mvps.org/admintools.htm
 
P

Paul

Flightless Bird
Paul Calcagno wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul. See my comments within your text below. Paul C.
>
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
> news:hn3b6v$ftv$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>> Paul Calcagno wrote:
>>> I'm running Win XP, SP3, 2 GB of RAM, Firefox, all WU's, Avira &
>>> SpywareDoctor set for updates and re-scans every day, MBAM, SAS,
>>> CCleaner resident on my Compaq laptop.
>>> Lately, sometimes right after I open up WLM and Firefox, the computer
>>> does an immediate shutdown - The screen goes black and the computer
>>> is completely off. Pushing the power on button brings it up just
>>> fine. This `shutdown' doesn't always happen.
>>> What I've tried so far is: "Dev Mgr==>Ethernet Properties. Click on
>>> Power tools tab; deselect `let computer turn off this device to save
>>> power". The only thing I didn't do after the Dev Mgr thing was a
>>> restart. Is there anything else that might cause/fix this problem?
>>> I've had some laptop fan issues, meaning that sometimes it seems to
>>> be off when it seems like it should be on. Would overheating the
>>> drive cause this kind of a shutdown? Would the `event logs' show
>>> anything and if so, how do I access them on my XP machine?
>>>
>>> Paul C.

>>
>> Modern processors are protected by THERMTRIP. Once the CPU gets
>> over a critical temperature, THERMTRIP causes the computer to
>> switch off instantly. There is no time for any log entry, if
>> that is the nature of the problem. Such a shutdown does not
>> involve software at all, and it doesn't get a say in the matter.
>>
>> Also, if the computer is getting that hot, the heat might not
>> be good for the battery. The battery lasts longer, if the ambient
>> temperature stays a bit lower.

> The battery's at the other end of the laptop so I doubt it's
> seeing much of the heat.
>>
>> I would check the vent on the machine, to see if it is free of
>> dust bunnies. If you have pets, that only increases the odds
>> it is a problem with the vent.

> I've cleaned out the vent and the fan fairly recently. It seems
> that sometimes if I poke the fan (with a paperclip) it will start up.
> Doesn't do this all the time and I can hear it running at different speeds.
>>
>> If you use a program like Speedfan (almico.com), you may be
>> able to monitor the CPU temperature.
>>
>> It could be, that you have two fans, and one of the fans has
>> stopped entirely.

> Only one fan.
>>
>> Paul

>


Brushless DC fans should be able to start on their own.

Fan speeds can be controlled by reducing the voltage. If
the voltage is reduced low enough, a fan may not be able to
spin. Since a fan with voltage control, is under feedback,
as the CPU temperature gets higher and higher, more voltage
would be applied by the driver or BIOS which is controlling
the fan. As far as I know, the fan should be able to start,
once enough voltage is present. If the driver was missing or
defective (in other words, there was no longer a control
algorithm working to control the fan), that could be enough
to leave the fan in an un-energized state. (This happened
recently to some unlucky Nvidia video card owners, due to a
defect in a recent driver update, so it does happen.) In the
case of your CPU, THERMTRIP is there to cover such a situation.

Inside the hub of the fan, is a small controller board.
That senses the position of the rotor, and controls when
the coils turn on. And that is supposed to guarantee that
the rotor can always be rotated. Now, maybe if there was
a problem with the control of the operation of the fan,
that would be enough to prevent proper operation. (I.e.
the transistor controlling one coil is bad.)

In any case, investigate the replacement part situation for
your computer. HP, for example, has the HP part store, and
you may be able to look there for an exact replacement fan.

While "standard" fans exist, manufacturers go out of their
way to use custom fans. Perhaps the fan they use is frameless,
and fits within the footprint of the copper heatsink. That makes
finding a replacement harder. You can't expect them to use
standard fans, since there isn't room inside the chassis for
such things to be installed. For a lot of other computing
equipment (desktops), I can go to my one good electronics
store in town, and expect to find nice replacement brushless
DC fans. The fan may not have a connector on the end, just
bare wires. By buying an associated crimp-on connector kit,
I can fit a three pin connector to the end, and replace a fan.
I did this a couple weeks ago, when I damaged my CPU cooling fan
while cleaning it. After cleaning, it would vibrate, so I had
to replace it. And using a connector kit, I was able to fit
a replacement solution. I would not expect doing this for
the laptop to be nearly as easy -- unless an exact replacement
part is available from someone. Since some laptop repair places
want $200 to "just look at it", if it was my laptop I'd be interested
in just fitting the fan myself. It all depends on how complicated
the disassembly procedure is, as to how practical that would be.

This is an example of a 40mm standard fan, with plastic frame.
I buy ones like this, to replace worn out fans in my external
hard drive enclosures. The one in a laptop is more likely to
be a "blower" design, with a side discharge from the fan body
rather than up and down flow.

http://i.ebayimg.com/05/!BkY8iBgB2k~$(KGrHqUH-EEEs+GEi5!uBL(UqvZ(4!~~_3.JPG

You can see a couple of the blower types on this laptop. You'll
notice here, they didn't even use identical fans, but chose to
use different fans for each side. It looks to me like the CPU
cooler is on the right, and the GPU (graphics) cooler is on the
left.

http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/106/images/Image_14S.jpg

Paul
 
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