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Windows XP backup to flash drive Fails

J

jkadtke

Flightless Bird
Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.

Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
this several times with different parameters, with the same result
each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
does nothing.

FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.

Any ideas what's wrong ???
 
M

MowGreen

Flightless Bird
jkadtke wrote:
> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>
> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> does nothing.
>
> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
>
> Any ideas what's wrong ???


Format the flash drive to NTFS

MowGreen
================
*-343-* FDNY
Never Forgotten
================

banthecheck.com
"Security updates should *never* have *non-security content* prechecked
 
P

Patrick Keenan

Flightless Bird
"jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...
> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>
> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> does nothing.
>
> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
>
> Any ideas what's wrong ???

Yes. The flash drive is formatted to FAT or FAT32, which does not allow
creation of files over 4gb.

Format the drive as NTFS and you'll be able to complete the task.

HOWEVER, flash drives are not appropriate for backups.

They have a tendency to suddenly and irretrievably fail, without any
warning, and when that happens your backups are gone forever.

Use these drives only for convenient transfer of files you have elsewhere.
Under no circumstances should they hold the only copies.

Instead, get a hard disk and a case, and back up to that. terabyte-size
hard disks are now in the $80 range, and a decent case chan be had for about
$25 or so. Assembly is trivial.

HTH
-pk
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Flightless Bird
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:44:01 -0800, jkadtke
<jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>
> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> does nothing.
>
> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
>
> Any ideas what's wrong ???


Yes. I, and many of us here, know exactly what's wrong. Your flash
drive is FAT32, and FAT32 has a maximum file size of 4GB. reformat it
as NTFS and the problem will go away.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
D

Don Phillipson

Flightless Bird
"jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...

> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>
> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> does nothing.

Hardly anyone uses MS backup nowadays
1: mainly because it is not backwards compatible;
2: also because it is crippled by software routines from the
1990s (e.g. will not back up to CD, sets maximum backup file
size without telling the user;)
3: because storage drive space is now so cheap we can
usually simply copy.

You should be able to copy all your 24 Gb of material to your
32 Gb flash drive using www.xxcopy.com.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
 
P

Paul Calcagno

Flightless Bird
Hey Ken. Do you minding commenting on how one goes about formatting a flash
drive as NTFS? Paul C.

"Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:5as2p59dddjaodt1j7tfh9jigckljnfv6t@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:44:01 -0800, jkadtke
> <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>>
>> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
>> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
>> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
>> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
>> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
>> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
>> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
>> does nothing.
>>
>> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
>> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
>> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
>>
>> Any ideas what's wrong ???
>
>
> Yes. I, and many of us here, know exactly what's wrong. Your flash
> drive is FAT32, and FAT32 has a maximum file size of 4GB. reformat it
> as NTFS and the problem will go away.
>
> --
> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Flightless Bird
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:23:26 -0500, "Paul Calcagno"
<pcalcagno@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> Hey Ken. Do you minding commenting on how one goes about formatting a flash
> drive as NTFS? Paul C.


Just as you'd format any other drive. From Administrative Tools |
Computer Management | Disk Management.


>
> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
> news:5as2p59dddjaodt1j7tfh9jigckljnfv6t@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:44:01 -0800, jkadtke
> > <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
> >>
> >> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> >> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> >> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> >> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> >> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> >> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> >> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> >> does nothing.
> >>
> >> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
> >> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
> >> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
> >>
> >> Any ideas what's wrong ???
> >
> >
> > Yes. I, and many of us here, know exactly what's wrong. Your flash
> > drive is FAT32, and FAT32 has a maximum file size of 4GB. reformat it
> > as NTFS and the problem will go away.
> >
> > --
> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
E

EN59CVH

Flightless Bird
"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote:
>
>
> Just as you'd format any other drive. From Administrative Tools |
> Computer Management | Disk Management.
>

Now you have exposed your stupidity of not knowing anything about
formatting in Windows OS. You haven't formatted your HD since Windows
3.1 and what right have you got to advice people on how to format a
flash drive?

The easiest way to format a flash drive is to right-click on the flash
drive from "My Computer" and then to select Format. You will only be
able to format as Fat32 depending on the size of the drive. A 4GB drive
can only be formatted as Fat32.

Now learn this by heart as I will ask questions tomorrow.
 
P

Paul

Flightless Bird
Paul Calcagno wrote:
> Hey Ken. Do you minding commenting on how one goes about formatting a
> flash drive as NTFS? Paul C.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbstick_e.html

"Obviously Windows XP doesn't enable a write cache for USB drives that
appear as 'Removable'. The settings 'Optimize for quick removal' or
'Optimize for performance' doesn't seem to make any difference then,
except that the latter enables the user to format 'Removable' USB drives
with NTFS. But with NTFS Windows XP enables a write cache, writing small
files becomes lightning fast."

Any time Windows doesn't support an option, it is also possible
to do what is needed with a Linux LiveCD. You can set up
FAT32 or NTFS partitions there if you want.

HTH,
Paul

>
> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
> news:5as2p59dddjaodt1j7tfh9jigckljnfv6t@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:44:01 -0800, jkadtke
>> <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>>>
>>> Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
>>> backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
>>> add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
>>> backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
>>> get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
>>> this several times with different parameters, with the same result
>>> each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
>>> does nothing.
>>>
>>> FYI -- I am running Windows XP Pro on a Sony Vaio laptop, and
>>> using a Kingston flash drive. I have run CHKDSK and other
>>> programs first to make sure there are no disk problems.
>>>
>>> Any ideas what's wrong ???
>>
>>
>> Yes. I, and many of us here, know exactly what's wrong. Your flash
>> drive is FAT32, and FAT32 has a maximum file size of 4GB. reformat it
>> as NTFS and the problem will go away.
>>
>> --
>> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
>> Please Reply to the Newsgroup
>
 
J

John John - MVP

Flightless Bird
EN59CVH wrote:
>
> "Ken Blake, MVP" wrote:
>>
>> Just as you'd format any other drive. From Administrative Tools |
>> Computer Management | Disk Management.
>>
>
> Now you have exposed your stupidity of not knowing anything about
> formatting in Windows OS. You haven't formatted your HD since Windows
> 3.1 and what right have you got to advice people on how to format a
> flash drive?
>
> The easiest way to format a flash drive is to right-click on the flash
> drive from "My Computer" and then to select Format.

The clip can be formatted as you say, or it can be formatted with the
Disk Management tool, or it can be formatted at the command prompt.


> You will only be able to format as Fat32 depending on the size of the drive. A 4GB drive
> can only be formatted as Fat32.

Not so. A 4GB clip can be formatted NTFS as long as it isn't optimized
for quick removal.


> Now learn this by heart as I will ask questions tomorrow.

Learn about the subject yourself before you take others to task on it.

John
 
C

Craig S

Flightless Bird
Would someone Clarify the Reformatting Issue as follows:

An HP Pocket Drive Manual talks of XP supporting FAT32 for File Organizing,
4GB FAT32 File LIMITS, and potential problems backing up. It THEN USES Win Me
as the example, and I'm at a loss as to where We'dstand re: the Formatting
issue and ANY PROBLEMS if I want to back-up ALL of C:..... (I have a Recovery
Partition as FAT32 (D:/). either there at purchase or part of Startup
Instructions] with C:/ being, of course, NTFS............. Any Clarification
is APPRECIATED.......................

"Don Phillipson" wrote:

> "jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...
>
> > Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
> >
> > Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> > backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> > add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> > backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> > get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> > this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> > each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> > does nothing.
>
> Hardly anyone uses MS backup nowadays
> 1: mainly because it is not backwards compatible;
> 2: also because it is crippled by software routines from the
> 1990s (e.g. will not back up to CD, sets maximum backup file
> size without telling the user;)
> 3: because storage drive space is now so cheap we can
> usually simply copy.
>
> You should be able to copy all your 24 Gb of material to your
> 32 Gb flash drive using www.xxcopy.com.
>
> --
> Don Phillipson
> Carlsbad Springs
> (Ottawa, Canada)
>
>
> .
>
 
P

Patrick Keenan

Flightless Bird
"Craig S" <CraigS@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C1006AF-2003-493E-A4D3-C1A7D8106B71@microsoft.com...
> Would someone Clarify the Reformatting Issue as follows:
>
> An HP Pocket Drive Manual talks of XP supporting FAT32 for File
> Organizing,
> 4GB FAT32 File LIMITS, and potential problems backing up. It THEN USES Win
> Me
> as the example, and I'm at a loss as to where We'dstand re: the Formatting
> issue and ANY PROBLEMS if I want to back-up ALL of C:..... (I have a
> Recovery
> Partition as FAT32 (D:/). either there at purchase or part of Startup
> Instructions] with C:/ being, of course, NTFS............. Any
> Clarification
> is APPRECIATED.......................

First, if this is an HP Pocket drive, it isn't a Flash drive. It has a
rotating hard disk inside. Flash drives are not suitable for backups as
they tend to suddenly and irretrievably fail. Use them only for convenient
transport of files you have elsewhere.

Second. FAT32 limits to 4 gig *for single files*. If you have files that
are larger than this, or if your backup program creates an archive larger
than this, it will fail on a FAT32 drive.

Re-format the target drive as NTFS and this won't be a problem. Of course,
anything currently on the drive will be lost.

As to the value of backing up the entire C parition, that's another story.
We don't know what app you are using or if it can restore a bare drive to
bootable condition.

HTH
-pk

>
> "Don Phillipson" wrote:
>
>> "jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...
>>
>> > Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>> >
>> > Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
>> > backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
>> > add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
>> > backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
>> > get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
>> > this several times with different parameters, with the same result
>> > each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
>> > does nothing.
>>
>> Hardly anyone uses MS backup nowadays
>> 1: mainly because it is not backwards compatible;
>> 2: also because it is crippled by software routines from the
>> 1990s (e.g. will not back up to CD, sets maximum backup file
>> size without telling the user;)
>> 3: because storage drive space is now so cheap we can
>> usually simply copy.
>>
>> You should be able to copy all your 24 Gb of material to your
>> 32 Gb flash drive using www.xxcopy.com.
>>
>> --
>> Don Phillipson
>> Carlsbad Springs
>> (Ottawa, Canada)
>>
>>
>> .
>>
 
C

Craig S

Flightless Bird
I'm abandoning Flash Drives as backup because of this Thread but realize
buying an External drive is More Than Buying the Drive. (HP's Pocket Drive is
either USB External or fits in a Bay on my desktop's front panel)

HP Drives come with SureStore Backup Software which I know Nothing About. I
got the impression from the HP Drive manual that With XP I'm FORCED to
Re-Format to FAT32 and that was my original confusion + C: being NTFS and
the HP Recovery D: Partition being FAT32 CONFUSED ME MORE- so I'll evacuate
this Thread and do more homework. Many Thanks for Replying.

"Patrick Keenan" wrote:

> "Craig S" <CraigS@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:8C1006AF-2003-493E-A4D3-C1A7D8106B71@microsoft.com...
> > Would someone Clarify the Reformatting Issue as follows:
> >
> > An HP Pocket Drive Manual talks of XP supporting FAT32 for File
> > Organizing,
> > 4GB FAT32 File LIMITS, and potential problems backing up. It THEN USES Win
> > Me
> > as the example, and I'm at a loss as to where We'dstand re: the Formatting
> > issue and ANY PROBLEMS if I want to back-up ALL of C:..... (I have a
> > Recovery
> > Partition as FAT32 (D:/). either there at purchase or part of Startup
> > Instructions] with C:/ being, of course, NTFS............. Any
> > Clarification
> > is APPRECIATED.......................
>
> First, if this is an HP Pocket drive, it isn't a Flash drive. It has a
> rotating hard disk inside. Flash drives are not suitable for backups as
> they tend to suddenly and irretrievably fail. Use them only for convenient
> transport of files you have elsewhere.
>
> Second. FAT32 limits to 4 gig *for single files*. If you have files that
> are larger than this, or if your backup program creates an archive larger
> than this, it will fail on a FAT32 drive.
>
> Re-format the target drive as NTFS and this won't be a problem. Of course,
> anything currently on the drive will be lost.
>
> As to the value of backing up the entire C parition, that's another story.
> We don't know what app you are using or if it can restore a bare drive to
> bootable condition.
>
> HTH
> -pk
>
> >
> > "Don Phillipson" wrote:
> >
> >> "jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...
> >>
> >> > Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
> >> >
> >> > Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
> >> > backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
> >> > add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
> >> > backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
> >> > get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
> >> > this several times with different parameters, with the same result
> >> > each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
> >> > does nothing.
> >>
> >> Hardly anyone uses MS backup nowadays
> >> 1: mainly because it is not backwards compatible;
> >> 2: also because it is crippled by software routines from the
> >> 1990s (e.g. will not back up to CD, sets maximum backup file
> >> size without telling the user;)
> >> 3: because storage drive space is now so cheap we can
> >> usually simply copy.
> >>
> >> You should be able to copy all your 24 Gb of material to your
> >> 32 Gb flash drive using www.xxcopy.com.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Don Phillipson
> >> Carlsbad Springs
> >> (Ottawa, Canada)
> >>
> >>
> >> .
> >>
>
> .
>
 
P

Patrick Keenan

Flightless Bird
"Craig S" <CraigS@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0E592B2-59E6-4E2A-9534-BD688FBB15F7@microsoft.com...
> I'm abandoning Flash Drives as backup because of this Thread but realize
> buying an External drive is More Than Buying the Drive.

Actually, it should be specifically about buying the drive. The problem
with pre-packaged models is that you can't know what the most important
part - the drive - actually is.

This is like buying a car without being able to know what engine is used.


> (HP's Pocket Drive is
> either USB External or fits in a Bay on my desktop's front panel)
>
> HP Drives come with SureStore Backup Software which I know Nothing About.

There are probably better choices. TrueImage is about US$50, and I would
expect that competing software is priced similarly.


> I
> got the impression from the HP Drive manual that With XP I'm FORCED to
> Re-Format to FAT32 and that was my original confusion + C: being NTFS and
> the HP Recovery D: Partition being FAT32 CONFUSED ME MORE- so I'll
> evacuate
> this Thread and do more homework. Many Thanks for Replying.

It's always a good idea to understand how your backups work. And do
verify them.

HTH
-pk

>
> "Patrick Keenan" wrote:
>
>> "Craig S" <CraigS@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:8C1006AF-2003-493E-A4D3-C1A7D8106B71@microsoft.com...
>> > Would someone Clarify the Reformatting Issue as follows:
>> >
>> > An HP Pocket Drive Manual talks of XP supporting FAT32 for File
>> > Organizing,
>> > 4GB FAT32 File LIMITS, and potential problems backing up. It THEN USES
>> > Win
>> > Me
>> > as the example, and I'm at a loss as to where We'dstand re: the
>> > Formatting
>> > issue and ANY PROBLEMS if I want to back-up ALL of C:..... (I have a
>> > Recovery
>> > Partition as FAT32 (D:/). either there at purchase or part of Startup
>> > Instructions] with C:/ being, of course, NTFS............. Any
>> > Clarification
>> > is APPRECIATED.......................
>>
>> First, if this is an HP Pocket drive, it isn't a Flash drive. It has a
>> rotating hard disk inside. Flash drives are not suitable for backups as
>> they tend to suddenly and irretrievably fail. Use them only for
>> convenient
>> transport of files you have elsewhere.
>>
>> Second. FAT32 limits to 4 gig *for single files*. If you have files
>> that
>> are larger than this, or if your backup program creates an archive larger
>> than this, it will fail on a FAT32 drive.
>>
>> Re-format the target drive as NTFS and this won't be a problem. Of
>> course,
>> anything currently on the drive will be lost.
>>
>> As to the value of backing up the entire C parition, that's another
>> story.
>> We don't know what app you are using or if it can restore a bare drive to
>> bootable condition.
>>
>> HTH
>> -pk
>>
>> >
>> > "Don Phillipson" wrote:
>> >
>> >> "jkadtke" <jkadtke@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:EEFE4C72-72D1-4497-A531-470A311E2510@microsoft.com...
>> >>
>> >> > Hello -- I'm having a problem with the Windows backup utiliy.
>> >> >
>> >> > Specifically, I tried using the Windows backup wizard to make a
>> >> > backup of my C drive ( system) and D drive ( user files), which both
>> >> > add up to about 24 GB. I bought a 32 GB flash drive to do the
>> >> > backups. However, when the program backs up about 4 GB, I
>> >> > get an error that says "tape full, insert new media". I have tried
>> >> > this several times with different parameters, with the same result
>> >> > each time (stops after 4 G8). Re-inserting the same flash drive
>> >> > does nothing.
>> >>
>> >> Hardly anyone uses MS backup nowadays
>> >> 1: mainly because it is not backwards compatible;
>> >> 2: also because it is crippled by software routines from the
>> >> 1990s (e.g. will not back up to CD, sets maximum backup file
>> >> size without telling the user;)
>> >> 3: because storage drive space is now so cheap we can
>> >> usually simply copy.
>> >>
>> >> You should be able to copy all your 24 Gb of material to your
>> >> 32 Gb flash drive using www.xxcopy.com.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Don Phillipson
>> >> Carlsbad Springs
>> >> (Ottawa, Canada)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> .
>> >>
>>
>> .
>>
 
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