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Why are a number of the newsgroups disappearing?

J

John McGaw

Flightless Bird
On 7/17/2010 5:43 AM, sheana wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
> clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
> newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
> communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
> helpful. Thanks in advance.

MS has announced the shutdown multiple times in every one of their
newsgroups AFAIK. Yes, they are shutting down. A little bit annoying but at
least it will kill the trolls...
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Flightless Bird
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:07:37 -0400, John McGaw <nowhere@at.all> wrote:

> On 7/17/2010 5:43 AM, sheana wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
> > clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
> > newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
> > communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
> > helpful. Thanks in advance.
>
> MS has announced the shutdown multiple times in every one of their
> newsgroups AFAIK. Yes, they are shutting down. A little bit annoying but at
> least it will kill the trolls...



Several points:

1. Although Microsoft is shutting down the newsgroups on *their* news
servers, that does not mean the newsgroups cease to exist. They
continue to be available on the many other news servers around the
world that echoes them. Here are three free ones where they can be
found:

aioe.org
new.eternal-september.org
news.albasani.net

The volume of posts has decreased and will very likely continue to
decrease, but that's not the same as the newsgroups disappearing.


2. Microsoft has replaced the newsgroups with web-based forums. As far
as I'm concerned, they are greatly inferior to the newsgroups, but at
least there is something.

3. It is possible to participate in the web-based forums using your
newsreader, using NNTP bridge software. Microsoft has some that's
available, but I prefer this one: http://communitybridge.codeplex.com/

I participate in the forums that way. In my view, it's far from
perfect, but it's much faster and greatly preferable to using the
forums directly.

4. Trolling in the old sense is largely gone from the forums, however
instead we now have messages complaining to Microsoft about this or
that. Many people don't realize that the forums are peer support
forums, like the newsgroups were, and they think they are addressing
Microsoft directly. So we now have a new kind of nonsense instead of
the old kind.




--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
M

milt

Flightless Bird
On 7/17/2010 4:43 AM, sheana wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
> clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
> newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
> communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
> helpful. Thanks in advance.

Because Microsoft is lame and getting rid of newsgroup support and
instead trying to force people to their lame forums. Yes, many find them
helpful but MS doesn't care.
 
M

milt

Flightless Bird
On 7/18/2010 3:42 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> Several points:
>
> 1. Although Microsoft is shutting down the newsgroups on *their* news
> servers, that does not mean the newsgroups cease to exist. They
> continue to be available on the many other news servers around the
> world that echoes them. Here are three free ones where they can be
> found:
>
> aioe.org
> new.eternal-september.org
> news.albasani.net
>
> The volume of posts has decreased and will very likely continue to
> decrease, but that's not the same as the newsgroups disappearing.
>
I just checked eternal-september (been using it for months) and they do
NOT seem to carry any of the microsoft.public.* hierarchy. I don't know
about aioe.org or news.albasani.net
>
> 2. Microsoft has replaced the newsgroups with web-based forums. As far
> as I'm concerned, they are greatly inferior to the newsgroups, but at
> least there is something.
>

Greatly inferior and you trade trolls for tons of repetitive posts you
can't filter out to get to anything useful.

> 3. It is possible to participate in the web-based forums using your
> newsreader, using NNTP bridge software. Microsoft has some that's
> available, but I prefer this one: http://communitybridge.codeplex.com/
>
> I participate in the forums that way. In my view, it's far from
> perfect, but it's much faster and greatly preferable to using the
> forums directly.
>
> 4. Trolling in the old sense is largely gone from the forums, however
> instead we now have messages complaining to Microsoft about this or
> that. Many people don't realize that the forums are peer support
> forums, like the newsgroups were, and they think they are addressing
> Microsoft directly. So we now have a new kind of nonsense instead of
> the old kind.
>
>
>
>
 
A

Alias

Flightless Bird
On 7/18/2010 11:11 PM, milt wrote:
> On 7/18/2010 3:42 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>> Several points:
>>
>> 1. Although Microsoft is shutting down the newsgroups on *their* news
>> servers, that does not mean the newsgroups cease to exist. They
>> continue to be available on the many other news servers around the
>> world that echoes them. Here are three free ones where they can be
>> found:
>>
>> aioe.org
>> new.eternal-september.org
>> news.albasani.net
>>
>> The volume of posts has decreased and will very likely continue to
>> decrease, but that's not the same as the newsgroups disappearing.
>>
> I just checked eternal-september (been using it for months) and they do
> NOT seem to carry any of the microsoft.public.* hierarchy. I don't know
> about aioe.org or news.albasani.net

I'm posting from eternal-september. Try refreshing the newsgroups before
you search.

--
Alias
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Flightless Bird
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:11:17 -0500, milt
<theatreguy_dunspam_@miltsweb.com> wrote:

> On 7/18/2010 3:42 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > Several points:
> >
> > 1. Although Microsoft is shutting down the newsgroups on *their* news
> > servers, that does not mean the newsgroups cease to exist. They
> > continue to be available on the many other news servers around the
> > world that echoes them. Here are three free ones where they can be
> > found:
> >
> > aioe.org
> > new.eternal-september.org
> > news.albasani.net
> >
> > The volume of posts has decreased and will very likely continue to
> > decrease, but that's not the same as the newsgroups disappearing.
> >
> I just checked eternal-september (been using it for months) and they do
> NOT seem to carry any of the microsoft.public.* hierarchy.



I can't tell you why you can't find them, but they *do* carry them.


> I don't know
> about aioe.org or news.albasani.net
> >
> > 2. Microsoft has replaced the newsgroups with web-based forums. As far
> > as I'm concerned, they are greatly inferior to the newsgroups, but at
> > least there is something.
> >
>
> Greatly inferior and you trade trolls for tons of repetitive posts you
> can't filter out to get to anything useful.


I'm with you entirely. I think Microsoft made a terrible mistake in
doing this.


--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Flightless Bird
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:54:03 -0500, milt
<theatreguy_dunspam_@miltsweb.com> wrote:

> On 7/17/2010 4:43 AM, sheana wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
> > clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
> > newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
> > communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
> > helpful. Thanks in advance.
>
> Because Microsoft is lame and getting rid of newsgroup support and
> instead trying to force people to their lame forums. Yes, many find them
> helpful but MS doesn't care.



Despite what I said in reply to your previous message, I don't at all
agree with you here. I think Microsoft did this because they
mistakenly thought this was a change that was better for their
customers.


--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 
J

Jason S

Flightless Bird
milt <theatreguy_dunspam_@miltsweb.com> wrote:
> Because Microsoft is lame and getting rid of newsgroup support and
> instead trying to force people to their lame forums. Yes, many find
> them helpful but MS doesn't care.

Its unfortunate really. I'm actually new to usenet and find these and
many other newsgroups to be quite helpful. Its a shame that usenet is
losing popularity. I enjoy the services it has to offer.

--
Jason
 
V

VanguardLH

Flightless Bird
sheana wrote:

> I signed up for eternal-september, and when I got a list of their available
> newsgroups, I didn't see anything relating to MS products. I put configured
> my eternal-september account with the user id and pw they sent me, which
> they said was necessary to view all available newsgroups.

As with any NNTP server after you add it to your newsreader, you have to
then go fetch the list of newsgroups. Reset or refresh the newsgroups
list to ensure that you have all *current* newsgroups listed (some get
added or deleted after awhile so you need to occasionally refresh the
group list). I don't use Xnews, your choice for newsreader, but
somewhere it should have the means of retrieving the current list of
newsgroups available for an account that you just defined or modified in
Xnews.

MVPs don't migrate to other NNTP servers (other than having to find one
when the one they were using before goes dead - but then ALL users of
that old dead NNTP server will have to move).

What is Usenet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroups
http://www.masonicinfo.com/newsgroups.htm
http://www.mcfedries.com/Ramblings/usenet-primer.asp

Usenet is a worldwide mesh network of peering NNTP servers. It is
possible some NNTP server do not carry some newsgroups. For example,
the freebie NSPs (newsgroup service providers) don't include binary
newsgroups because the bandwidth and disk space needed for all the porn
would overwhelm their meager budgets (after all, they're free so it's
all an out-of-pocket expense to them).

Microsoft is killing of their newsgroups on THEIR server and eventually
they will kill their server. So you and everyone else (and not just
MVPs) that want to continue using NNTP will have to switch to another
server.

Eternal-September, Albasani, Giganews, Google Groups, and just about
every NSP that I've talked to or for which other users have reported a
response from the NSP are saying that they will continue carrying the
microsoft.public.* newsgroups. The volume will, of course, go way down
in these newsgroups because of Microsoft disabling their webnews-for-
dummies interface to Usenet via the "Communities" gateway to pretend
they had web-based forums.

With registered free NSPs, like eternal-september or albasani, you ARE
required to configure the news[groups] account in your newsreader to
login. If you simply connect without providing a valid and previously
authenticated login then all you get are a few support newsgroups for
use of that particular NSP. So did you enter the correct login
credentials in the news account you defined in OE?
 
V

VanguardLH

Flightless Bird
John McGaw wrote:

> sheana wrote:
>
>> I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
>> clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
>> newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
>> communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
>> helpful. Thanks in advance.
>
> MS has announced the shutdown multiple times in every one of their
> newsgroups AFAIK. Yes, they are shutting down. A little bit annoying but at
> least it will kill the trolls...

Selecting an option to ask to inform on a "bad" post is NOT the same as
moderation. Moderation is something that is *current* and active by
someone monitoring the forum every day and usually incorporates multiple
admins/moderators to check several times per day and at different times.
Reporting bad posts is NOT monitoring. That's retroactive correction.
Suturing a wound doesn't eliminate that the wound happened. You think a
noob visiting a web-based forum that is inundated with repeated garbage
posts cares that the forum becomes usable some hours later after
corrective action is performed?

Also, the only way to ban a poster who is considered a troll, malicious
user, or other undesirable (per Microsoft's policy such as it is) would
be by their IP address. Yet dial-up users get a different IP address
everytime they get a Internet connection from their ISP. Trolls can
easily bypass IP blocks by using yet another publicly accessible
anonymizing proxy server (or even setup their own farm of hosts and
there are even "ghost" services with worlwide farms of proxies). It is
possible to update an IP block list with the IP addresses of these
proxies but not all are published anywhere to provide an easy means of
discovering them.

Trolls will still survive. What you end up in the forums because of the
extra measures involved in surviving there are trolls that actually
behave in the true definition of such. Trolls are NOT obvious to new
users! They don't appear as malcontents, foul-mouthed, peurile ranting
SOBs. They aren't obvious in starting a flame war but prefer to
introduce the topic, flame it just enough, and then let the regulars
flail away at each other. They pretend to offer help (which could be
worthless or even malicious) or they waste your time leading you along a
line of questioning on a bogus problem to feed off your want to help.
Being a web-based forum will not eliminate trolls. There are some folks
that are very good at trolling. We have a troll here that asks a
barrage of questions, usually across multiple replies (to deepen the
subthread depth) regarding versions and setup details which is often not
required to actually start providing help along with pushing noobs
without their permission to a different group than where they asked
their question. Regulars know his modus operandi but not the noobs
trying to get help. To be a real troll means not being obvious about
it. It usually takes some history of participating regularly in a forum
to recognize the repeated behavior of a devious troll. Alas, the
filtering you have available in a newsreader is not available when using
Microsoft's inane web-based forums.

Since there is no fee to participate and since there is no real or
verified credentials involved in registering to use the web-based
forums, just what loss is incurred by a troll who gets ousted from
posting in the forums? Moderation requires punishment and it must be
immediate to be effective. If they get their current moniker or IP
address banned, gee, like they surely have no means of generating a new
moniker or acquiring a different IP address, uh nuh, for sure (rolls
eyes).

"/Trolling/ for suckers" isn't eliminated because you visit a web-based
forum. Please don't confuse spam with trolling. Spamming was and is
minimal in the microsoft.public.* newsgroups, especially if you
eliminated Google Groupers and some Usenet leeching web sites pretending
to offer forums via a gateway to Usenet. You think with the users
getting pushed to Microsoft's web-based forums that the trolls who
inhabited those newsgroups won't also migrate to the forums? Uh huh,
sure, if that's what it takes to make you feel fuzzy comfy.
 
U

Uke A. Liptus

Flightless Bird
It doesn't matter what you use. Since there is very little posting and
replying going on to the MS public newsgroups, changing servers doesn't
matter. When they're dead, they're dead.

Oh, and read the instructions about getting the newsgroups on ES web. It
explains about how you must use your password.
"sheana" <sheana@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:47A5E329-45B0-4257-ADC6-C9EE38E44205@microsoft.com...
:I signed up for eternal-september, and when I got a list of their available
: newsgroups, I didn't see anything relating to MS products. I put
configured
: my eternal-september account with the user id and pw they sent me, which
: they said was necessary to view all available newsgroups.
:
: I took a look at albasani, and used their contact form to request an
: account. So I'll have to wait on that.
:
: But how do I find the Microsoft groups on eternal-september?
:
: Which NNTP server are most of the MVP's migrating to?
:
: Thanks in advance,
:
: sheana
:
: "VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
: news:i1sgoa$mp2$1@news.albasani.net...
: > sheana wrote:
: >
: >> I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
: >> clicked
: >> on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that newsgroup
was
: >> not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
: >> communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
: >> helpful.
: >> Thanks in advance.
: >
: > Stop using Microsoft's NNTP server. Microsoft is abandoning their
: > 4-year experiment to attempt usurping the 30-year old Usenet. Connect
: > your newsreader (Outlook Express) to another NNTP server. Many are
: > free, like albasani and eternal-september, and some are very cheap, like
: > individual.net ($16USD/yr). Netiner Usenet or the microsoft.public.*
: > newsgroups are disappearing. It's Microsoft that's leaving Usenet.
:
 
V

VanguardLH

Flightless Bird
Uke A. Liptus wrote:

> It doesn't matter what you use. Since there is very little posting and
> replying going on to the MS public newsgroups, changing servers doesn't
> matter. When they're dead, they're dead.

Newsgroups aren't dead for lack of volume in traffic. They are dead
when you don't get responses. Well, gee, look ... there are replies so
this newsgroup is NOT dead as you hoped.
 
E

Ernest T. Bass

Flightless Bird
"VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
news:i22edn$fcs$1@news.albasani.net...
: Uke A. Liptus wrote:
:
: > It doesn't matter what you use. Since there is very little posting and
: > replying going on to the MS public newsgroups, changing servers doesn't
: > matter. When they're dead, they're dead.
:
: Newsgroups aren't dead for lack of volume in traffic. They are dead
: when you don't get responses. Well, gee, look ... there are replies so
: this newsgroup is NOT dead as you hoped.

You condescending, pretentious HoopleHead.
 
D

Dave F.

Flightless Bird
On 19/07/2010 22:16, Ernest T. Bass wrote:
> "VanguardLH"<V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
> news:i22edn$fcs$1@news.albasani.net...
> : Uke A. Liptus wrote:
> :
> :> It doesn't matter what you use. Since there is very little posting and
> :> replying going on to the MS public newsgroups, changing servers doesn't
> :> matter. When they're dead, they're dead.
> :
> : Newsgroups aren't dead for lack of volume in traffic. They are dead
> : when you don't get responses. Well, gee, look ... there are replies so
> : this newsgroup is NOT dead as you hoped.
>
> You condescending, pretentious HoopleHead.


But correct. You're still here aren't you?
 
V

VanguardLH

Flightless Bird
Ernest T. Bass wrote:

> "VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
> news:i22edn$fcs$1@news.albasani.net...
>: Uke A. Liptus wrote:
>:
>:> It doesn't matter what you use. Since there is very little posting and
>:> replying going on to the MS public newsgroups, changing servers doesn't
>:> matter. When they're dead, they're dead.
>:
>: Newsgroups aren't dead for lack of volume in traffic. They are dead
>: when you don't get responses. Well, gee, look ... there are replies so
>: this newsgroup is NOT dead as you hoped.
>
> You condescending, pretentious HoopleHead.

Ooooh, I'm been berated by a child stealing someone else's witicism.
Yes, I am sooo depressed now, uh huh.
 
B

Bob I

Flightless Bird
Dave F. wrote:

> On 17/07/2010 23:49, mm wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT), Jose<jose_ease@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>
>
>> I think with enough points they will give you VP 2.4, Virtual Pony.
>
>
> You obviously didn't read the T&C's. They don't "give" you the pony just
> the right to use it until they decide to withdraw that right. :)
>

Who provides the saddle?
 
S

sheana

Flightless Bird
Forgot to ask, where can I find these web forums for Microsoft? Thanks in
advance.

"Alias" <aka@hewhoismasked&anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:i1s0lm$62k$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 07/17/2010 11:43 AM, sheana wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I subscribe to a number of MS newsgroups, but, for example, when I
>> clicked on the newsgroup for word.general I got a message that that
>> newsgroup was not available from the MS server. Is MS phasing out the
>> communities/newsgroups? Let me know, because I find them incredibly
>> helpful. Thanks in advance.
>
> They're history. MS wants you to go to their web forums where they can
> control the content and suppress free speech (and not to mention having a
> new Hotmail account they can sell to spammers as valid). Other news
> servers are still carrying MS groups but for how long is not known.
>
> --
> Alias
 
S

Steve Cochran

Flightless Bird
P

Peter Taylor

Flightless Bird
On 8/10/2010 1:09 PM, Steve Cochran wrote:
>
> That's the old one that will go away with the NGs. Here is the new one:
>
> http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/categories
>
> steve
>
> "Peter Taylor"<noemailspam@please.com.invalid> wrote in message news:i3ral0$e2l$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 8/10/2010 12:15 PM, sheana wrote:
>>> Forgot to ask, where can I find these web forums for Microsoft? Thanks
>>> in advance.
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx
>>
>> --
>> Peter Taylor

Thanks for the correction.

--
Peter Taylor
 
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