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OT: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

>> And if you have your heads misaligned on the other tape
>> drive.. OUCH Zero Recover of data.

>
> Well, that's a given... Remember the floppy nightmares?


Yup, thanks for proving my point.
TAPE = BAD Technology
:)
Russ
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote in
news:-OLJjdAakKHA.5076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:

>>> And if you have your heads misaligned on the other tape
>>> drive.. OUCH Zero Recover of data.

>>
>> Well, that's a given... Remember the floppy nightmares?

>
> Yup, thanks for proving my point.
> TAPE = BAD Technology
>:)
> Russ


Russ = BAD brain
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

<SNIP>

[Sorry, the brain comment was a reply to your other post.]

I don't have the patience to argue with someone who can't even
be bothered to read the full thread and attempt to comprehend
the arguments, so I'm not replying to the one where you repeat
stuff that has been said, rebutted, and re-stated and re-
rebutted by several other people.

I'll just say that based on empirical evidence, the only thing
that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -
well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
stamp on them.

Did you know one of the things which helped Google to succeed as
they did was that they bought the cheapest HW possible and there
were many people whose job was to hot-swap HD's which failed -
and continue to fail - all the time?
 
R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

LOL
Insults is a sure sign of losing a argument
And Google lost how much data?

My point exactly...
Tape = Dead!

later, Have a good day...
Russ

"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFBDD96F9737thanexit@188.40.43.245...
> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
> in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> [Sorry, the brain comment was a reply to your other post.]
>
> I don't have the patience to argue with someone who can't even
> be bothered to read the full thread and attempt to comprehend
> the arguments, so I'm not replying to the one where you repeat
> stuff that has been said, rebutted, and re-stated and re-
> rebutted by several other people.
>
> I'll just say that based on empirical evidence, the only thing
> that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
> burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -
> well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
> everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
> magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
> stamp on them.
>
> Did you know one of the things which helped Google to succeed as
> they did was that they bought the cheapest HW possible and there
> were many people whose job was to hot-swap HD's which failed -
> and continue to fail - all the time?
 
B

Bill in Co.

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

thanatoid wrote:
> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
> in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>
> <SNIP>
>

<snip>
>
> I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,


Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

> the only thing
> that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
> burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -


Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if they are external
drives which are only used as needed. They are both FAST and have HUGE
storage capabilities, unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs
are too limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what makes you
think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic disks? How many old reel to
reel magnetic audio tapes from the late 1940's do you have *that are still
in good condition*? (rhetorical)

> well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
> everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
> magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
> stamp on them.


Nothing is indestructible, including paper. They ALL have lifetime issues.
Ever checked out the condition of books (i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good
luck on that one.
 
H

HeyBub

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

thanatoid wrote:
> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
> in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> [Sorry, the brain comment was a reply to your other post.]
>
> I don't have the patience to argue with someone who can't even
> be bothered to read the full thread and attempt to comprehend
> the arguments, so I'm not replying to the one where you repeat
> stuff that has been said, rebutted, and re-stated and re-
> rebutted by several other people.
>
> I'll just say that based on empirical evidence, the only thing
> that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper - disc
> burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long enough -
> well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but contrary to
> everyone else in the world, you appear to believe they're
> magical and indestructible, especially when they have a Google
> stamp on them.
>
> Did you know one of the things which helped Google to succeed as
> they did was that they bought the cheapest HW possible and there
> were many people whose job was to hot-swap HD's which failed -
> and continue to fail - all the time?


Heh! I worked for a company back in the 60's that warehoused their original
data acquisition tapes. They had over a quarter-million of them in a
environmentally-controlled warehouse. They also had a band of hippies
working in the warehouse whose job it was to keep the integrity of the tapes
pristine. They did this by routinely retensioning the tapes (essentially
rewinding them twice on special machines) and checking for microscopic
flaking of the oxide. When tape degeneration was found, the tape was copied
on to a virgin reel.

This was a never-ending - and expensive - endeavor. Certainly not record it
and forget it.
 
J

JoeSpareBedroom

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote in message
news:%23Xjdr9ZkKHA.1824@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
> But then that's long enough
> :)
> Russ



Who is "they"?
 
J

JoeSpareBedroom

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFADA3A97681thanexit@188.40.43.245...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
> news:hsQ1n.12448$XU.256@newsfe03.iad:
>
>> "Abby Brown" <abbybrown@charter.net> wrote in message
>> news:%23cQ4IRMkKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've been using DVD and CDs for long term backup and
>>> archiving. However, recent uploading of a hundred or so
>>> CDs and DVDs had several that failed. These were only
>>> about six years old. (I typically spot test a newly
>>> burned disk.) More than one burner and brand of blanks
>>> was involved. The burners and blanks are garden variety.
>>>
>>> What are more reliable alternatives?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Gary

>>
>>
>> External hard disk. If losing the data would be disastrous,
>> then two external hard disks. Move one to a bank safe
>> deposit box weekly or at whatever interval makes sense to
>> you. Swap with the other next week. Remember that you're
>> trying to protect not only against computer failure, but
>> also against the building burning down.

>
> You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when handling
> them".



No, I did not forget to mention that. Rather, there is no need to mention
that to any normal person, unless one has no life and gets thrills from
pointing out the blindingly obvious. All backup methods can be damaged,
neglected, used incorrectly, or otherwise made useless or less effective.


The OP would do well to read this and consider it as part of his backup
scheme:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2288745,00.asp
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
in news:eD51VzakKHA.1540@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

> LOL
> Insults is a sure sign of losing a argument
> And Google lost how much data?
>
> My point exactly...
> Tape = Dead!
>
> later, Have a good day...
> Russ


You're a complete moron. I have time for somewhat dumb but open-
minded people, but not for hopeless cases convinced of their
superiority over everyone else. Have a nice life.

k, 0, Enter.
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:#cukKObkKHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:

> thanatoid wrote:
>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz>
>> wrote in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>

> <snip>
>>
>> I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

>
> Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?


Read the complete sentence before asking stupid questions. (At
least you're not a top-poster.)

>> the only thing
>> that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper -
>> disc burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long
>> enough -

>
> Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.


Oh, so you have 100 year-old CD-R's that play better than a book
printed 100 years ago "reads"?

> Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if
> they are external drives which are only used as needed.
> They are both FAST and have HUGE storage capabilities,
> unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs are too
> limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what
> makes you think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic
> disks? How many old reel to reel magnetic audio tapes
> from the late 1940's do you have *that are still in good
> condition*? (rhetorical)


I don't but many people involved in archiving the past do. They
ARE putting them into digital formats but they are not throwing
the originals out. Ever been to a museum?

>> well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but
>> contrary to everyone else in the world, you appear to
>> believe they're magical and indestructible, especially
>> when they have a Google stamp on them.

>
> Nothing is indestructible, including paper.


I never said paper was indestructible. You can destroy anything
if you want.

> They ALL have
> lifetime issues. Ever checked out the condition of books
> (i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good luck on that one.


I have quite a few books from the XIXth century and even more
from before WWII and they are just fine. Go to a library or an
antiquarian, you may see some even better examples.
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
news:ypl2n.72$TC5.19@newsfe24.iad:

> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz>
> wrote in message
> news:%23Xjdr9ZkKHA.1824@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
>> But then that's long enough
>> :)
>> Russ

>
> Who is "they"?


More to the point, which one of us will be there to find out if
"they" were right?
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

"JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
news:gDl2n.78$TC5.5@newsfe24.iad:

> "thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CFADA3A97681thanexit@188.40.43.245...


>> You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when
>> handling them".

>
> No, I did not forget to mention that. Rather, there is no
> need to mention that to any normal person, unless one has
> no life


I don't.

> and gets thrills from pointing out the blindingly
> obvious.


It does not appear all that blindingly obvious to many people in
this thread.

> All backup methods can be damaged, neglected, used
> incorrectly, or otherwise made useless or less effective.


Except for Google's hard drives, I hear.

> The OP would do well to read this and consider it as part
> of his backup scheme:
>
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2288745,00.asp


I'm not sure who is the OP anymore, but I read it anyway, since
I have no life.

Very nice article about which buttons to press to make the magic
happen and how much it costs to press them. Not a single word
about HOW the data is backed up and kept secure - the closest I
found, in the 10 or so pages I read (more than just the original
article) were "Backup versions are kept for 90 days" and "my
rather frustrating experiences when trying to restore large
batches of files to different machines".

Great. WHAT machines? What media? How many copies? And let's not
forget the Big Scare of This Century - what anti-terrorist
attack safeguards are in place? What if someone takes out the
industrial park where the company is located (or ALL the
industrial parks in the several parts of the country, or
countries), let alone the entire communications system currently
handling all our data? (Yes, I /know/ if that were to happen
we'd have bigger things to worry about than losing pictures of
Rover as a puppy.)

Etc.
 
R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

I know Tape is your "god"
and in your eyes I've insulted your "god"
But you really need to find a new religion...
Everyone else has figured it out...

Calling me names because I embrace new technology?
Is kind of childish. But then that's your call...

I suppose since I believe in "GOD" that I'm a moron also?

Enjoy your thoughts...
and Take care.

However, The facts are the facts Tape is going the way of the Dodo Bird
Just like Microfiche, BetaMax, 8 Track Tapes and Laser Discs.
(Sorry you had to resort to insults for an argument however.)

I will no longer respond to insults, if you have some real arguments that
have some shred of data, I'll be more than willing to discuss, but when all
you do is insult me, then the discussion is over. (not that I care if you
insult me, it's not worth my time.)

Later,
Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com


"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFC5FBAE20AFthanexit@188.40.43.245...
> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz> wrote
> in news:eD51VzakKHA.1540@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>
>> LOL
>> Insults is a sure sign of losing a argument
>> And Google lost how much data?
>>
>> My point exactly...
>> Tape = Dead!
>>
>> later, Have a good day...
>> Russ

>
> You're a complete moron. I have time for somewhat dumb but open-
> minded people, but not for hopeless cases convinced of their
> superiority over everyone else. Have a nice life.
>
> k, 0, Enter.
 
R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

Bill He's Resorting to Insults
Just let him go...
:)

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com


"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFC60A18C507thanexit@188.40.43.245...
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:#cukKObkKHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:
>
>> thanatoid wrote:
>>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz>
>>> wrote in news:#e0EN9ZkKHA.1536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>>>
>>> <SNIP>
>>>

>> <snip>
>>>
>>> I'll just say that based on empirical evidence,

>>
>> Documented (peer reviewed) cites, please?

>
> Read the complete sentence before asking stupid questions. (At
> least you're not a top-poster.)
>
>>> the only thing
>>> that outlasts properly stored magnetic tape is paper -
>>> disc burning /or/ HD technology has not been around long
>>> enough -

>>
>> Documented cites??? This is an unsubstantiated claim.

>
> Oh, so you have 100 year-old CD-R's that play better than a book
> printed 100 years ago "reads"?
>
>> Actually, hard drives make a good backup, especially if
>> they are external drives which are only used as needed.
>> They are both FAST and have HUGE storage capabilities,
>> unlike most any other backup media. CD's and DVDs are too
>> limited in capacity, and tapes take forever. And what
>> makes you think magnetic tapes last longer than magnetic
>> disks? How many old reel to reel magnetic audio tapes
>> from the late 1940's do you have *that are still in good
>> condition*? (rhetorical)

>
> I don't but many people involved in archiving the past do. They
> ARE putting them into digital formats but they are not throwing
> the originals out. Ever been to a museum?
>
>>> well, HD's /have/ been around for /some/ time, but
>>> contrary to everyone else in the world, you appear to
>>> believe they're magical and indestructible, especially
>>> when they have a Google stamp on them.

>>
>> Nothing is indestructible, including paper.

>
> I never said paper was indestructible. You can destroy anything
> if you want.
>
>> They ALL have
>> lifetime issues. Ever checked out the condition of books
>> (i.e. paper) from, say, 1920? Good luck on that one.

>
> I have quite a few books from the XIXth century and even more
> from before WWII and they are just fine. Go to a library or an
> antiquarian, you may see some even better examples.
 
R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

Hence my phrase "That's long enough"

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com


"thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CFC60E15B62Ethanexit@188.40.43.245...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
> news:ypl2n.72$TC5.19@newsfe24.iad:
>
>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@REMOVETHIS.sbits.biz>
>> wrote in message
>> news:%23Xjdr9ZkKHA.1824@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> Actually they predict CD's at 100 years
>>> But then that's long enough
>>> :)
>>> Russ

>>
>> Who is "they"?

>
> More to the point, which one of us will be there to find out if
> "they" were right?
 
A

ANONYMOUS

Flightless Bird
I use external (USB version) hard disk and my Norton Ghost 15 (recently
upgraded from Norton Ghost 14) is doing a good job. You can back up
your entire system every quarter and your documents everyday. These
things are done automatically in the background and you won't even
notice it.

hth


Abby Brown wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been using DVD and CDs for long term backup and archiving.
> However, recent uploading of a hundred or so CDs and DVDs had
> several that failed. These were only about six years old. (I
> typically spot test a newly burned disk.) More than one burner
> and brand of blanks was involved. The burners and blanks are
> garden variety.
>
> What are more reliable alternatives?
>
> Thanks,
> Gary
 
S

sgopus

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.

"Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" wrote:

> how does a hard drive fail sitting on a shelf?
>
> --
> Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
> Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
> Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
> World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
> Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com
>
>
> "thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CFADA3A97681thanexit@188.40.43.245...
> > "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
> > news:hsQ1n.12448$XU.256@newsfe03.iad:
> >
> >> "Abby Brown" <abbybrown@charter.net> wrote in message
> >> news:%23cQ4IRMkKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I've been using DVD and CDs for long term backup and
> >>> archiving. However, recent uploading of a hundred or so
> >>> CDs and DVDs had several that failed. These were only
> >>> about six years old. (I typically spot test a newly
> >>> burned disk.) More than one burner and brand of blanks
> >>> was involved. The burners and blanks are garden variety.
> >>>
> >>> What are more reliable alternatives?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Gary
> >>
> >>
> >> External hard disk. If losing the data would be disastrous,
> >> then two external hard disks. Move one to a bank safe
> >> deposit box weekly or at whatever interval makes sense to
> >> you. Swap with the other next week. Remember that you're
> >> trying to protect not only against computer failure, but
> >> also against the building burning down.

> >
> > You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when handling
> > them".
> >
> > I can NOT believe how many people have fallen for the external
> > HD rip off (a $20 drive in a $3 box selling for $100) the ONLY
> > reason for which is the fact that NO money is to be made on
> > CD/DVD media and burners any more, and tape backups have always
> > been too expensive for personal use.
> >
> > (Once HD's got bigger than 8.4 GB, anyway - I still have a
> > working Colorado tape drive, but it only stores about 250MB per
> > cartridge, makes a most annoying sound, and takes forever - but
> > OTOH I have tapes from the late 90's which are still just
> > fine...)
> >
> > "Since hard drives are mechanical devices, they will all
> > eventually fail. While some may not fail prematurely, many hard
> > drives simply fail because of worn out parts. Many hard drive
> > manufacturers include a Mean Time Between Failures figure on
> > product packaging or in promotional literature. These are
> > calculated by constantly running samples of the drive for a
> > short amount of time, analyzing the resultant wear and tear upon
> > the physical components of the drive, and extrapolating to
> > provide a reasonable estimate of its lifespan. Since this fails
> > to account for phenomena such as the aforementioned head crash,
> > external trauma (dropping or collision), power surges, and so
> > forth, the Mean Time Between Failures number is not generally
> > regarded as an accurate estimate of a drive's lifespan."
> > (Wikipedia)
> >
> > Aside from the fact that ANYTHING can be destroyed if you really
> > want to do it (although try bending a CD-R and see just how easy
> > it is to make it crack in two***), top-quality brand name CD-
> > and DVD-R's burned with good software at slow speeds can not
> > mechanically fail and are quite long-lasting. They do
> > deteriorate over time, but if you make 2 copies and copy one of
> > them every 3 or so years, the data will probably outlive you.
> >
> > Tape has also proven to be very dependable, but the cost of
> > high-capacity tape drives is prohibitive to most individuals -
> > however they are routinely used for backups of network data in
> > corporate environments.
> >
> > ***(OTOH, take a razor blade and make a few cuts in the printed
> > side of a CD-R and see what happens...)

>
 
R

Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

OMG!
Are you Serious?
FYI: Light bulbs fail from repeated on/off of the filament
causing a failure because of heat changes.

Not Sitting on a Shelf!

A light bulb will last the longest if ON all the time.
And There's a lightbulb that's lasted over 109 years
http://www.centennialbulb.org/

If you still think your light bulb theory is solid.
Please tell me, how does a Hard drive on the shelf occurs the same drastic
thermal issues?

OK Next theory Please
Please come up with something legitimate other than Flood,
Building Burned down, Solar Flairs or Alien Abduction.
Russ
--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com


"sgopus" <sgopus@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73517F5A-DEF2-4EAF-8A10-B1B11B5F623B@microsoft.com...
> Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.
>
> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" wrote:
>
>> how does a hard drive fail sitting on a shelf?
>>
>> --
>> Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
>> Microsoft Gold Certified Partner
>> Microsoft Certified Small Business Specialist
>> World Wide 24hr SBS Remote Support - http://www.SBITS.Biz
>> Microsoft Online Services - http://www.microsoft-online-services.com
>>
>>
>> "thanatoid" <waiting@the.exit.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CFADA3A97681thanexit@188.40.43.245...
>> > "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in
>> > news:hsQ1n.12448$XU.256@newsfe03.iad:
>> >
>> >> "Abby Brown" <abbybrown@charter.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:%23cQ4IRMkKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I've been using DVD and CDs for long term backup and
>> >>> archiving. However, recent uploading of a hundred or so
>> >>> CDs and DVDs had several that failed. These were only
>> >>> about six years old. (I typically spot test a newly
>> >>> burned disk.) More than one burner and brand of blanks
>> >>> was involved. The burners and blanks are garden variety.
>> >>>
>> >>> What are more reliable alternatives?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Gary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> External hard disk. If losing the data would be disastrous,
>> >> then two external hard disks. Move one to a bank safe
>> >> deposit box weekly or at whatever interval makes sense to
>> >> you. Swap with the other next week. Remember that you're
>> >> trying to protect not only against computer failure, but
>> >> also against the building burning down.
>> >
>> > You forgot to say "try not to drop the drives when handling
>> > them".
>> >
>> > I can NOT believe how many people have fallen for the external
>> > HD rip off (a $20 drive in a $3 box selling for $100) the ONLY
>> > reason for which is the fact that NO money is to be made on
>> > CD/DVD media and burners any more, and tape backups have always
>> > been too expensive for personal use.
>> >
>> > (Once HD's got bigger than 8.4 GB, anyway - I still have a
>> > working Colorado tape drive, but it only stores about 250MB per
>> > cartridge, makes a most annoying sound, and takes forever - but
>> > OTOH I have tapes from the late 90's which are still just
>> > fine...)
>> >
>> > "Since hard drives are mechanical devices, they will all
>> > eventually fail. While some may not fail prematurely, many hard
>> > drives simply fail because of worn out parts. Many hard drive
>> > manufacturers include a Mean Time Between Failures figure on
>> > product packaging or in promotional literature. These are
>> > calculated by constantly running samples of the drive for a
>> > short amount of time, analyzing the resultant wear and tear upon
>> > the physical components of the drive, and extrapolating to
>> > provide a reasonable estimate of its lifespan. Since this fails
>> > to account for phenomena such as the aforementioned head crash,
>> > external trauma (dropping or collision), power surges, and so
>> > forth, the Mean Time Between Failures number is not generally
>> > regarded as an accurate estimate of a drive's lifespan."
>> > (Wikipedia)
>> >
>> > Aside from the fact that ANYTHING can be destroyed if you really
>> > want to do it (although try bending a CD-R and see just how easy
>> > it is to make it crack in two***), top-quality brand name CD-
>> > and DVD-R's burned with good software at slow speeds can not
>> > mechanically fail and are quite long-lasting. They do
>> > deteriorate over time, but if you make 2 copies and copy one of
>> > them every 3 or so years, the data will probably outlive you.
>> >
>> > Tape has also proven to be very dependable, but the cost of
>> > high-capacity tape drives is prohibitive to most individuals -
>> > however they are routinely used for backups of network data in
>> > corporate environments.
>> >
>> > ***(OTOH, take a razor blade and make a few cuts in the printed
>> > side of a CD-R and see what happens...)

>>
 
T

thanatoid

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

=?Utf-8?B?c2dvcHVz?= <sgopus@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote
in news:73517F5A-DEF2-4EAF-8A10-B1B11B5F623B@microsoft.com:

> Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.


<SNIP>

Get it???? <SNIP>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway... Sigh...

There was a discussion about that a couple of years ago, in
24hour help I think. The 2 sides were arguing whether it is the
"burst" of full current that blows up a weakened filament or
whether it is just coincidental that we notice it more when it
happens the moment we turn a light on - sometimes producing a
short but interesting blue-ish color effect. Needless to say, it
went on for quite a while until every one just got bored, but no
agreement was ever reached, as usual.

It's like the "leave the CRT monitors on all the time or switch
them off when not in use?" thing.
 
B

Bill in Co.

Flightless Bird
Re: Reliable Medium For Long Term Backup And Archiving

thanatoid wrote:
> =?Utf-8?B?c2dvcHVz?= <sgopus@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote
> in news:73517F5A-DEF2-4EAF-8A10-B1B11B5F623B@microsoft.com:
>
>> Same way light bulbs fail just when you turn them on.

>
> <SNIP>
>
> Get it???? <SNIP>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Anyway... Sigh...
>
> There was a discussion about that a couple of years ago, in
> 24hour help I think. The 2 sides were arguing whether it is the
> "burst" of full current that blows up a weakened filament or


I indeed most certainly believe it IS! (speaking as an EE).
It's due to the sudden and large onrush (the filament resistance is very low
when it's cold, so the current surge is intially quite large, and there is a
sudden thermal expansion of the filament, naturally).

But obviously a light bulb left on all the time will also eventually burn
out too, however.

> whether it is just coincidental that we notice it more when it
> happens the moment we turn a light on


Well, it is also true that that's when we notice it the most. But that
doesn't negate #1 above.

Anyway, there is no concrete evidence that I'm aware that tape in tape drive
sitting on a shelf lasts longer than a magnetic disk in a disk drive does
when stored away on a shelf.

And, personally, I'd rather it be on a disk, actually, due to the inherent
problems with tape. Of course, I've had a bit of experience with tape over
all the decades, too (in audio), and have seen some of its "issues".

I still have a fondness for tape recorders, however, but mostly from a
nostalgic point of view. I have no fondness for wire recorders, however,
or engraved stone tablets, for that matter (for storage). :)
 
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