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New Laptop - which flavour of Windows? (and other issues)

B

Bernard Peek

Flightless Bird
On 12/03/10 22:55, Clive George wrote:
> On 12/03/2010 19:52, Barry Watzman wrote:
>
>> Also, be certain that the CPU in whatever laptop you are going to get
>> supports "Intel Virtualization Technology". This is required for running
>> "XP Mode", and is only supported by about half of current CPUs.

>
> At a guess, AMD virtualization (AMD-V) will also work.


It will.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com
 
G

george [dicegeorge]

Flightless Bird
Is your current laptop at 2GB RAM.
If not can it be upgraded-
#this may solve most of your problems!

Roger Mills wrote:
> I'm in the market for a new laptop computer. I need to have access to the
> same software and data files at two different locations, and have decided
> that a single laptop is preferable to maintaining two lots of hardware and
> trying to keep them in synch.
>
> Much as I would like to get away from the clutches of Microsoft, I *need*
> Windows because I've got lots of software which won't run on anything else.
>
> My current - rather elderly - laptop is running Win XP Home Sp3 and lots of
> essential applications - many of which came free with various PC magazines,
> and would cost a fortune to replace or upgrade - so my 'new' laptop needs to
> be able to run all of these. I've also got a number of USB devices -
> printers, scanners, MIDI interfaces, etc. - which need to work with the new
> laptop.
>
> Most new laptops seem to come with Windows 7 - and I'm hearing comments
> suggesting that elderly software applications (e.g. Quicken 98, Design CAD
> 3000, etc.) which work perfectly well under XP may refuse to work under 7.
> Is this likely? Is there a solution? Would I also need new drivers for all
> my USB-based devices?
>
> Would I be any better off with Vista (which I've so far managed to avoid!)
> or would I face the same issues as with 7? [One or two
> half-way-decent-looking 'refurb' laptops are seemingly still available with
> Vista].
>
> How easy is it to 'downgrade' a Vista or Win7 PC to XP - and would that
> solve my problems? [I have a valid XP-Home licence from a PC which I
> scrapped - and some original (may just be SP1) media - but not the latest
> version.]
>
> Other Issues:
> How the heck do you backup and restore systems which no longer have floppy
> drives? In my current setup, I have Norton Ghost 2003 which needs to boot
> into DOS from a floppy - and can then clone a drive or partition to another
> internal or external (or network) drive. It doesn't provide the option of
> creating a bootable CD. Come to think of it, I'm not at all sure that it
> would recognise SATA disks! I get the impression that later versions of
> Ghost can backup the system disk while Windows is actually running. Is this
> correct? Also, they seem to come with a bootable 'recovery' CD from which to
> boot in order to restore a backup. Does this work ok? Is so, it looks like
> I'm going to have to invest in the latest version of Ghost!
>
> Your comments - particularly regarding the best choice of OS for my
> particular circumstances - will be greatly appreciated.
 
B

Barry Watzman

Flightless Bird
Re: "But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!"

Because it is broken, only the cracks are not on the surface.

There is NO support by Intuit for anything over about 3 years old.
There are security issues. And once you get more than about 6 years
old, you may not be ABLE to migrate from the old version to a current
version. What I did was do multiple migrations at about 3-year
intervals. The problem is, you have waited so long that you may not be
able to find the necessary intermediate versions. But, more to the
point, if you continue to wait, doing so will get increasingly more
difficult. You will get to a point where you won't be able to migrate
and will lose everything.

To make a bootable CD from a bootable floppy, you need a program such as
"Roxio" or "Nero". They have the ability to make a bootable CD using a
floppy as the boot image; it's a standard feature of "full feature"
burning products. When you boot from the CD, the floppy image will come
up as A: and the rest of the CD will come up as some other drive letter,
PROVIDING that the OS booted from the image (e.g. the floppy) had
generic CD drivers (e.g. a device driver and MSCDEX) [if these are not
present, the rest of the CD won't be accessible, which may not be
relevant anyway, e.g. if you are flashing a bios or running a memory or
disk diagnostic that originally was on a bootable floppy].



Roger Mills wrote:
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Barry Watzman
> <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> Some of your applications are REALLY old. Quicken 98? Really, you
>> should make upgrading to later versions a bit of a priority. [In my
>> case, I upgraded from Quicken 98 to 2000 to 2003 to 2006 to 2010]. One
>> problem is that you have waited SO long that you may not be able
>> to move from 98 to 2010; you might have to try to find someone who
>> actually has installation CDs of at least one or a few intermediate
>> versions. Similarly with the other products.
>>

>
> But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"! Quicken 98 does
> everything I want - so why upgrade? [I did get a free millennium-proof
> upgrade for it - but it probably wasn't necessary because my wife is still
> using an even earlier version quite successfully!]
>
>> I would recommend that you go with Windows 7 Professional, 32-bit. This
>> will give you the most options and backwards compatibility. Most things
>> will probably work, but it's absolutely the case that not
>> everything will. The reason I suggested Professional instead of Home
>> Premium is that with Professional, you have the option, at least, of
>> using "XP Mode". I think that Win 7 is better than Vista in just
>> about every way.
>> Also, be certain that the CPU in whatever laptop you are going to get
>> supports "Intel Virtualization Technology". This is required for
>> running "XP Mode", and is only supported by about half of current
>> CPUs.

>
> Useful advice - thanks!
>
>
>> You can ALWAYS take a bootable floppy and make a bootable CD that will
>> behave EXACTLY like the floppy (although, of course, you won't be able
>> to write to it).
>>

>
> Yes, I guessed that that must be possible. Would you care to elaborate as to
> how to go about it?
 
B

Bob Eager

Flightless Bird
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:17:22 -0500, Barry Watzman wrote:

> Re: "But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!"
>
> Because it is broken, only the cracks are not on the surface.
>
> There is NO support by Intuit for anything over about 3 years old. There
> are security issues. And once you get more than about 6 years old, you
> may not be ABLE to migrate from the old version to a current version.
> What I did was do multiple migrations at about 3-year intervals. The
> problem is, you have waited so long that you may not be able to find the
> necessary intermediate versions. But, more to the point, if you
> continue to wait, doing so will get increasingly more difficult. You
> will get to a point where you won't be able to migrate and will lose
> everything.


I migrated last year from Quicken 98 (non Millennium version) to MyMoney
on FreebSD - no problem!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
Roger Mills wrote:

> Most new laptops seem to come with Windows 7 - and I'm hearing comments
> suggesting that elderly software applications (e.g. Quicken 98, Design CAD
> 3000, etc.) which work perfectly well under XP may refuse to work under 7.
> Is this likely? Is there a solution? Would I also need new drivers for all


Some older stuff may have problems with the enforced security model of
win7. This is basically a result of apps not following the rules about
which parts of the files system and registry they are allowed to access.
(MS apps being just as bad as others!).

Sometimes you can get past this with selective use of admin rights
during first run etc. (i.e. doing a run as administrator)

Better versions of win7 also include an XP mode - this is basically a
complete XP system inside a virtual machine that can be used for stuff
that goofs in a bad way.

> my USB-based devices?


If you have WDM drivers that work under XP these will also work under 7.
Older style drivers will need replacement though.

> Would I be any better off with Vista (which I've so far managed to avoid!)


No, not in any conceivable way. Stay away, avoid, don't go there!

> or would I face the same issues as with 7? [One or two
> half-way-decent-looking 'refurb' laptops are seemingly still available with
> Vista].


You would have many of the same issues, in addition to the OS being
totally crap as well.

> How easy is it to 'downgrade' a Vista or Win7 PC to XP - and would that
> solve my problems? [I have a valid XP-Home licence from a PC which I
> scrapped - and some original (may just be SP1) media - but not the latest
> version.]


It can vary from easy (wipe the partition, boot from cd and install) to
impossible. Some later laptops may have drivers that won't run on XP and
are not available. This is relatively rare - but does happen (especially
on sony laptops!)

> Other Issues:
> How the heck do you backup and restore systems which no longer have floppy
> drives? In my current setup, I have Norton Ghost 2003 which needs to boot
> into DOS from a floppy - and can then clone a drive or partition to another
> internal or external (or network) drive. It doesn't provide the option of
> creating a bootable CD. Come to think of it, I'm not at all sure that it
> would recognise SATA disks! I get the impression that later versions of
> Ghost can backup the system disk while Windows is actually running. Is this
> correct? Also, they seem to come with a bootable 'recovery' CD from which to
> boot in order to restore a backup. Does this work ok? Is so, it looks like
> I'm going to have to invest in the latest version of Ghost!


Bootable CDs and memory sticks have completely replaced floppies now.
There are plenty of partition imaging / copy programs about other than
ghost as well. Segate Maxblast is basically a slightly limited version
of Acronis Trueimage and can be very handy[1]

[1] In theory it only runs if you have a Sesgate or Maxtor drive in the
system somewhere, and throws up an error if you don't. To circumvent
this, just type ALT+t, ALT+o at the dialog and click ok.

> Your comments - particularly regarding the best choice of OS for my
> particular circumstances - will be greatly appreciated.


If the choice was XP or Vista, then hanging out with XP would probably
be viable for a bit. Now 7 is here there is not really much reason to
stay with xp since there will come a time that support for it dies, and
then you are in a didgy position the first time a serious security break
comes along that does not get patched.

Note if you by Win7 Pro then that automatically includes downgrade
rights to XP if you really are worried about not limiting your options.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
J

John Doue

Flightless Bird
On 3/12/2010 2:52 PM, Barry Watzman wrote:
> Some of your applications are REALLY old. Quicken 98? Really, you
> should make upgrading to later versions a bit of a priority. [In my
> case, I upgraded from Quicken 98 to 2000 to 2003 to 2006 to 2010]. One
> problem is that you have waited SO long that you may not be able to move
> from 98 to 2010; you might have to try to find someone who actually has
> installation CDs of at least one or a few intermediate versions.
> Similarly with the other products.


Quicken 98 was one of the best versions of Quicken. Although upgrading
Quicken sometimes brings usefull features (too seldom in my view), the
interface becames more clogged year after year. Some things, which were
nice in earlier version, have not reappared: I am still missing the
ability in much older versions to select icons for an account. The
reports remain confusing (you never know which one to use when you need
one): no wizard is here to help you.

Upgrading so called older applications is not always a good idea: who
prefers Word 07 to Word 03 (which is apparently difficult to install in
W7), just to name one.

Personally, I am not willing to give up several applications which,
while older, serve me well while more recent versions of them end up,
beyond the eye candy, being more complex and slower. Still, I recommend
evaluating them since refusing to do so would not be exactly smart.


> I would recommend that you go with Windows 7 Professional, 32-bit. This
> will give you the most options and backwards compatibility. Most things
> will probably work, but it's absolutely the case that not everything
> will. The reason I suggested Professional instead of Home Premium is
> that with Professional, you have the option, at least, of using "XP
> Mode". I think that Win 7 is better than Vista in just about every way.
>
> Also, be certain that the CPU in whatever laptop you are going to get
> supports "Intel Virtualization Technology". This is required for running
> "XP Mode", and is only supported by about half of current CPUs.
>
> You can ALWAYS take a bootable floppy and make a bootable CD that will
> behave EXACTLY like the floppy (although, of course, you won't be able
> to write to it).
>

One fact also needs to be taken in consideration: W7 needs to be
installed in its own flavor of NTFS (which is not necessarily a welcome
news for people who like me prefer FAT32; may be theoratically less
robust, but so much easier to fix in case of problem).

I do not know first hand to which extent W7 perfectly supports FAT 32
for partitions other than the OS partition. My understanding is that MS
was reluctant to make W7 comptatible with FAT32. This issue may make the
decision even more difficult.

At the end of the day, unless the laptops come free, in which case
installing or reinstalling XP would make sense, once Vista is totally
ruled out, I heartily second your advice of W7-32; your mention of the
XP Mode and what it involves is also very wise.

--
John Doue
 
J

John Doue

Flightless Bird
On 3/12/2010 7:17 PM, Barry Watzman wrote:
> Re: "But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!"
>
> Because it is broken, only the cracks are not on the surface.
>
> There is NO support by Intuit for anything over about 3 years old. There
> are security issues. And once you get more than about 6 years old, you
> may not be ABLE to migrate from the old version to a current version.
> What I did was do multiple migrations at about 3-year intervals. The
> problem is, you have waited so long that you may not be able to find the
> necessary intermediate versions. But, more to the point, if you continue
> to wait, doing so will get increasingly more difficult. You will get to
> a point where you won't be able to migrate and will lose everything.
>
> To make a bootable CD from a bootable floppy, you need a program such as
> "Roxio" or "Nero". They have the ability to make a bootable CD using a
> floppy as the boot image; it's a standard feature of "full feature"
> burning products. When you boot from the CD, the floppy image will come
> up as A: and the rest of the CD will come up as some other drive letter,
> PROVIDING that the OS booted from the image (e.g. the floppy) had
> generic CD drivers (e.g. a device driver and MSCDEX) [if these are not
> present, the rest of the CD won't be accessible, which may not be
> relevant anyway, e.g. if you are flashing a bios or running a memory or
> disk diagnostic that originally was on a bootable floppy].
>


Locating an intermediate version of Quicken would have two advantages:
evaluating it (you might love it) and taking care of the issue Barry
rightly raises. I might have some in my closet ...

Might want to stop the cross-posting, by the way.
--
John Doue
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
Rod wrote:

> The best technologies minimise traffic by caching and all sorts of
> clever tricks. For me the best user experience is with RDP over a VPN.
> (I just don't like the effect of connecting and disconnecting VPN
> connections all day. But if it is all day to one location that is not
> much of an issue.) Main reason is that RDP will set itself to use the
> size of monitor you are connecting with (quite large in my case) whereas
> LogMeIn and VNC use the real monitor size - and some sites I connect to
> have postage stamps for monitors. But it is also quite fast and fluid.
>
> I'd suggest you simply try it. For simplicity set up free LogMeIn on
> your computer and try to access it from somewhere else. (That will need
> a browser plugin on the computer you connect from. Works fine in IE and
> Firefox.)


Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
slow on Vista and Win7.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
R

Ryan P.

Flightless Bird
On 3/12/2010 7:02 PM, John Rumm wrote:

> Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
> that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
> and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
> nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
> setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
> slow on Vista and Win7.


I don't have any issues with speed going from my Vista laptop (or the
Win 7 partition on the laptop) via VNC to my Win 7 desktop upstairs.

Of course, I turn off most of the Aero eye candy, as it does nothing
except increase power usage and suck RAM. That could be part of your
speed issue?
 
R

Ryan P.

Flightless Bird
On 3/12/2010 11:08 AM, Roger Mills wrote:

> Can you run USB-connected physical devices in a VM, or only software
> applications? I'm thinking of things like my Midiman Uno MIDI interface, for
> which there doesn't appear to be a W7 driver.


In my experience, Win7 will happily install most XP and Vista drivers.
Win7 successfully installed, and all my peripherals worked on my old
desktop, which was based on 6 year old MB, AMD 3200, and all the
associated old hardware. With 1GB of RAM, no less.

I think its really going to be luck of the draw on your peripherals
working in Win7. Best thing to do will be to Google your peripheral
along with Win7. Chances are other people have the same peripheral as
you do, and likely there will be a workaround.
 
R

Rod

Flightless Bird
On 13/03/2010 01:02, John Rumm wrote:
<>
>
> Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
> that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
> and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
> nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
> setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
> slow on Vista and Win7.
>

I had never see VNC-SC before. But as we use LogMeIn extensively that
has become our preferred solution. Never have firewall issues (once the
remoter machine has normal web access) at either end.

If the remote computer does not have it installed, we simply talk the
user through installing it. Have managed to get some pretty incompetent
people through that process. (Depending on how you set up
accounts/usernames, you might need temporarily to reveal your password
to allow them to add their computer to your account. When this issue
arises, we change our password for a minute or two.)

And we only use LogMeIn free ourselves - though quite a number of the
sites we access have decided to get a paid-for version.

--
Rod
 
A

Adrian C

Flightless Bird
On 13/03/2010 00:17, Barry Watzman wrote:
> Re: "But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!"
>
> Because it is broken, only the cracks are not on the surface.
>
> There is NO support by Intuit for anything over about 3 years old. There
> are security issues. And once you get more than about 6 years old, you
> may not be ABLE to migrate from the old version to a current version.


Quicken stopped UK support in 2005.

http://www.quicken.co.uk/

I still use Quicken 98 for invoicing, and I really should get around to
exporting my data to something else...

Need to find round tuits.

--
Adrian C
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
Ryan P. wrote:
> On 3/12/2010 7:02 PM, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
>> that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
>> and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
>> nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
>> setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
>> slow on Vista and Win7.

>
> I don't have any issues with speed going from my Vista laptop (or the
> Win 7 partition on the laptop) via VNC to my Win 7 desktop upstairs.
>
> Of course, I turn off most of the Aero eye candy, as it does nothing
> except increase power usage and suck RAM. That could be part of your
> speed issue?



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
Ryan P. wrote:

> On 3/12/2010 7:02 PM, John Rumm wrote:


Ok, with content this time!

>> Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
>> that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
>> and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
>> nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
>> setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
>> slow on Vista and Win7.

>
> I don't have any issues with speed going from my Vista laptop (or the
> Win 7 partition on the laptop) via VNC to my Win 7 desktop upstairs.


The normal VNC seems ok over a LAN when controlling Vista etc, but the
single click version over a pair of ADSL connections seems to have major
difficulties.

> Of course, I turn off most of the Aero eye candy, as it does nothing
> except increase power usage and suck RAM. That could be part of your
> speed issue?


Turning off aero helps - but its still almost postal - e.g. click for a
menu and wait anything from 10 to 20 seconds to see the result etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
J

John Rumm

Flightless Bird
Rod wrote:
> On 13/03/2010 01:02, John Rumm wrote:
> <>
>>
>> Wandering off topic a bit here, but, are you aware of any free solutions
>> that can work in the manner of VNC-SC (i.e. a small prog a user can DL
>> and run that then "phones home" back to me and gives remote control -
>> nicely sidestepping any NAT and firewall issues on the remote end of the
>> setup). While VNC-SC works well controlling XP machines, its painfully
>> slow on Vista and Win7.
>>

> I had never see VNC-SC before. But as we use LogMeIn extensively that
> has become our preferred solution. Never have firewall issues (once the
> remoter machine has normal web access) at either end.


I will have to give it a go... ta.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
 
J

John Doue

Flightless Bird
On 3/13/2010 5:56 AM, Adrian C wrote:
> On 13/03/2010 00:17, Barry Watzman wrote:
>> Re: "But why? My attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!"
>>
>> Because it is broken, only the cracks are not on the surface.
>>
>> There is NO support by Intuit for anything over about 3 years old. There
>> are security issues. And once you get more than about 6 years old, you
>> may not be ABLE to migrate from the old version to a current version.

>
> Quicken stopped UK support in 2005.
>
> http://www.quicken.co.uk/
>
> I still use Quicken 98 for invoicing, and I really should get around to
> exporting my data to something else...
>
> Need to find round tuits.
>

You lost me here. What does your last sentence mean?

--
John Doue
 
B

Barry Watzman

Flightless Bird
There are 3 options for these situations:

1. Put up with the very annoying UAC prompts every time you use the
older programs.

2. Turn off UAC entirely. Not recommended by the experts, but in
reality you are no worse off than you would be if you were just using XP.

3. It is possible to configure UAC behavior on a program-by-program
basis, e.g. off for ill-behaved older programs but on for later, UAC
compliant software. A web search will find instructions. It's not easy
or fun; this was not something Microsoft really intended to support, but
it can be manually configured.


John Rumm wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote:
>
> Some older stuff may have problems with the enforced security model of
> win7. This is basically a result of apps not following the rules about
> which parts of the files system and registry they are allowed to access.
> (MS apps being just as bad as others!).
>
> Sometimes you can get past this with selective use of admin rights
> during first run etc. (i.e. doing a run as administrator)
>
> Better versions of win7 also include an XP mode - this is basically a
> complete XP system inside a virtual machine that can be used for stuff
> that goofs in a bad way.
>
 
A

Andy Champ

Flightless Bird
Roger Mills wrote:
> I'm in the market for a new laptop computer. I need to have access to the
> same software and data files at two different locations, and have decided
> that a single laptop is preferable to maintaining two lots of hardware and
> trying to keep them in synch.
>
> Much as I would like to get away from the clutches of Microsoft, I *need*
> Windows because I've got lots of software which won't run on anything else.
>

</snip>

Don't go Vista. It doesn't do anything that Win7 doesn't do better. XP
was OK, but I think I prefer 7.

Andy
 
A

Adrian C

Flightless Bird
On 13/03/2010 13:18, John Doue wrote:
> On 3/13/2010 5:56 AM, Adrian C wrote:
>>
>> Need to find round tuits.
>>

> You lost me here. What does your last sentence mean?
>


Sorry, it's uk.x parlance. It's an expression of my admitted laziness :)

http://everything2.com/title/round+tuit

--
Adrian C
 
R

Roger Mills

Flightless Bird
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, geoff <raden@kateda.org>
wrote:
> In message <7vv2rbFst9U1@mid.individual.net>, Roger Mills
> <watt.tyler@googlemail.com> writes
>> I'm in the market for a new laptop computer. I need to have access
>> to the same software and data files at two different locations, and
>> have decided that a single laptop is preferable to maintaining two
>> lots of hardware and trying to keep them in synch.
>>

>
> Ask me when I phone you when your fan's ready
>
> I have a few pointers



Will do. Ta!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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