M$ Ending Open Discussion Newsgroups!

[LVTravel]

"El Kot" <nono.black.elko@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4be21f0e$0$286$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
> Michael wrote:
>> <mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com> wrote in message
>>> Dhu Pin Yoo <dhu.pin.yoo@ethereal.broadband.taipei.tw> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joining the leagues of censorship activists, obviously.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> "Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
>>>> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion
>>>> forums such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet and MSDN
>>>> sites.
>>>>
>>>> Although venerable, Microsoft said that so-called NNTP newsgroups have
>>>> past their time in terms of being usable and secure."
>>>>
>>>> More at
>>>>
>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm curious. How is MS going to remove these newsgroups? The way I
>>> was told, years ago, is that newsgroups CAN NOT be removed. Once
>>> they're created, they're there forever. In some ways this is a good
>>> thing. On the other hand there are many newsgoups that are completely
>>> useless, something like alt.david.smith.sucks.his.mothers.tits. If
>>> you look at the list, there are many such groups. So, I have often
>>> wished they could be removed.
>>>
>>> Anyhow, since MS can not remove newsgroups, what effect will that have
>>> on these groups? Does MS ever really post to these groups? From what
>>> I've seen, I can not recall even one time I saw a response from MS,
>>> unless some MS employee replies to posts under their own handle. With
>>> that in mind, what will stop any of us from continuing to use these
>>> newsgroups?
>
> Nothing. We'll continue using them, just like we do now.
>
>
>> These newsgroups are on Microsoft servers. All they need to do is pull
>> the plug.
>
> No they're not. They got started on M$ servers, but now they are all
> over the place. Pulling the plug of the M$ servers will stop just these
> servers, and nothing else. The groups will live on.
>
> --
> No, no, you can't e-mail me with no no.

When MS pulls the plug you will no longer be able to post to these newgroups
that are "microsoft.public......." Anything already propagated to another
news server will live on. Those on techarena, newegg, etc. will not longer
have access to the free hard drive space on MS's servers.

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "LVTravel" <none@nothere.com>



| When MS pulls the plug you will no longer be able to post to these newgroups
| that are "microsoft.public......." Anything already propagated to another
| news server will live on. Those on techarena, newegg, etc. will not longer
| have access to the free hard drive space on MS's servers.

That all depends. It certainly won't be propogating from msnews.microsoft.com but might
still be usable from various NSPs.

That is unless a control message is sent to remove the groups from Usenet and all peers
adhere to that.

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

 

[mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com]

On Wed, 5 May 2010 22:44:16 -0400, "David H. Lipman"
<DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote:

>From: "LVTravel" <none@nothere.com>
>
>
>
>| When MS pulls the plug you will no longer be able to post to these newgroups
>| that are "microsoft.public......." Anything already propagated to another
>| news server will live on. Those on techarena, newegg, etc. will not longer
>| have access to the free hard drive space on MS's servers.
>
>That all depends. It certainly won't be propogating from msnews.microsoft.com but might
>still be usable from various NSPs.
>
>That is unless a control message is sent to remove the groups from Usenet and all peers
>adhere to that.

It's not the end of the world. There are other newsgroups for every
windows version, such as "alt.windows-xp". So we all move there.
That newsgroup is not the most active, but if we move there, then it
will be. I come here to discuss XP, I really dont care whether the
group has "microsoft.public" in the name. The only reason I use this
group more than "alt.windows-xp" is because there is more activity
here. So we all move to that newsgroup, the group gets more activity
and we continue on as always. And also, new newsgroups can be created
too. We'll survive. We just need to make plans where to move, while
MS plans to destroy this group and their other ones. To be perfectly
honest, there are too many groups for each OS. Why do we need a dozen
or more XP groups? If we all go to the same place there will be less
newsgroups we all have to visit. And there are a hell of a lot of
microsoft.public groups.

I do wonder what google.groups, giganews, and the other main news
servers will do. Will they kiss MSs ass or not?

 

[Bob I]

John John - MVP wrote:

> pip22 wrote:
>
>> ... Having to download headers is a pain, followed by downloading the
>> posts you want to read, especially on slow, rural connections.
>>
>> Web-based forums are much easier to access and navigate, and far less
>> littered with cr*p whereas NNTP is awash with it.
>
>
> Now that is quite an oxymoronic statement! Who's leg are you trying to
> pull telling us that web forums are faster than text based newsgroups?

I suppose it is for those who can't actually navigate newsgroups.

 

[Tim Slattery]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:

>I'm curious. How is MS going to remove these newsgroups? The way I
>was told, years ago, is that newsgroups CAN NOT be removed.

You're right. MS can turn off its servers, but there are zillions of
Usenet servers all over the world that carry the microsoft.public.*
hierarchy. They will continue to exist.

> Once they're created, they're there forever.

Just about. If you read news.newgroups, you see postings proposing new
groups as well as questions about groups that are apparently no longer
used. The Big8 Management Board will remove groups when they
determined that they are no longer used.

But all that means is that they request sysops all over the world to
delete those groups from their systems. They can't force anything.

Then there's the alt.* hierarchy, which is anarchic. By which I mean
that anybody (who has access to an NNTP server, anyway) can create a
group. Whether other sysops pick it up is, of course, up to them. Just
as there's no "process" for creating a new alt.* group, there's no way
to get rid of one either. It's a free-for-all. Still, there are many
very good groups there. There's also trash.

--
Tim Slattery
Slattery_T@bls.gov
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt

 

[milt]

On 5/6/2010 7:05 AM, Bob I wrote:
>
>
> John John - MVP wrote:
>
>> pip22 wrote:
>>
>>> ... Having to download headers is a pain, followed by downloading the
>>> posts you want to read, especially on slow, rural connections.
>>>
>>> Web-based forums are much easier to access and navigate, and far less
>>> littered with cr*p whereas NNTP is awash with it.
>>
>>
>> Now that is quite an oxymoronic statement! Who's leg are you trying to
>> pull telling us that web forums are faster than text based newsgroups?
>
> I suppose it is for those who can't actually navigate newsgroups.
>

Yeah, you can't just "click here" to get newsgroups. It actually takes
some thought and effort to do so. However, its hilarious to infer
graphics-laden message boards are faster than pure-text. As for it being
archaic. So is SMTP, does that mean we should get rid of that as well?
If its not broke, don't fix it! Yeah, newsgroups have their issues but
there are ways to get around those as well.

 

[milt]

On 5/5/2010 8:44 PM, El Kot wrote:
>
> No they're not. They got started on M$ servers, but now they are all
> over the place. Pulling the plug of the M$ servers will stop just these
> servers, and nothing else. The groups will live on.
>

No, the groups will die because they started out on the microsoft
servers. What other servers carry these groups? None that I can think of.

 

[El Kot]

milt wrote:
> On 5/5/2010 8:44 PM, El Kot wrote:
>>
>> No they're not. They got started on M$ servers, but now they are all
>> over the place. Pulling the plug of the M$ servers will stop just these
>> servers, and nothing else. The groups will live on.
>>
>
> No, the groups will die because they started out on the microsoft
> servers.

Nonsense. Will a river stop flowing, if you cut off the spring? Of
course not, and it will be the same here.


> What other servers carry these groups? None that I can think of.

I can't think of one that doesn't. All three that I use -
news.sunsite.dk, news.eternal-september.org, and nntp.aioe.org - carry
them. The admin of eternal-september was explicitly asked, and replied
he has no intention of honoring M$'s rmgroup commands. Which server do
you use that doesn't carry them?

 

[Paul]

El Kot wrote:
> milt wrote:
>> On 5/5/2010 8:44 PM, El Kot wrote:
>>>
>>> No they're not. They got started on M$ servers, but now they are all
>>> over the place. Pulling the plug of the M$ servers will stop just these
>>> servers, and nothing else. The groups will live on.
>>>
>>
>> No, the groups will die because they started out on the microsoft
>> servers.
>
> Nonsense. Will a river stop flowing, if you cut off the spring? Of
> course not, and it will be the same here.
>
>
> > What other servers carry these groups? None that I can think of.
>
> I can't think of one that doesn't. All three that I use -
> news.sunsite.dk, news.eternal-september.org, and nntp.aioe.org - carry
> them. The admin of eternal-september was explicitly asked, and replied
> he has no intention of honoring M$'s rmgroup commands. Which server do
> you use that doesn't carry them?

These are some of the responses from "Ray Banana", who runs eternal-september.org.
This is from the "eternal-september.support" group on his server, in a
thread entitled "Question about the Microsoft groups" 5/5/2010 11:15 PM.

*******

"Indeed. If Microsoft sends a syntactically correct and properly signed
control message, I will certainly honour it."

*******

"Sorry, I was just being sarcastic.

Microsoft has never bothered to issue control messages for its
microsoft.* groups and I assume they will just switch off their servers
and leave the mess behind that they have been inflicting on Usenet for
more than fifteen years. Right now, there are 1772 microsoft.public.*
groups on E-S and many of them are empty or just filled with spam.

As Microsoft will not create new "official" groups or remove obsolete
groups on its own servers anymore, Julièn Élie will consequentially stop
issuing "virtual" checkgroups control messages for the microsoft.*
hierarchy and hence it's in the sole discretion of each NSP to decide which
microsoft.* groups, if any, they are going to carry after Microsoft will
finally FOAD Usenet-wise, which will inevitably lead to inconsistent
group lists and will definitely not improve the usability of this
hierarchy. It would take enormous efforts to restructure the namespace,
cut back the proliferations of Microsoft's naming conventions and make
it Usenet compliant, so I doubt this can be achieved without a
maintainer. With all this in mind, I would suggest to abandon the
microsoft.* mess as FUBAR and create a set of newsgroups within and in
accordance with the rules of the existing and established hierarchies."

*******

"> When Julièn Élie issues rmgroup control articles, will
> eternal-september honour them?

Given the current settings of E-S's control.ctl, no."

*******

So that gives a somewhat prioritized approach to what will happen.

1) If Microsoft issues the control messages, the microsoft.* will be
removed from newsservers honoring those control messages.

2) If the proxy agent Julièn Élie issues the messages, then
discretion will play a part in the decision.

3) Given the hierarchy is a mess, and no one will be maintaining it,
the existing groups could continue to function as they currently
do. If someone wanted to add microsoft.public.windows7.* to the
hierarchy, there might not be any mechanism to do that in an
organized fashion.

So if Microsoft issued the control messages, then the groups would disappear.
(Their opinion would carry a stronger weight.)

Otherwise, it's like a car without a steering wheel. It'll just continue
driving, all over the countryside. Yehaa!

HTH,
Paul

 

[Tim Slattery]

milt <theatreguy_dunspam_@miltsweb.com> wrote:

>No, the groups will die because they started out on the microsoft
>servers. What other servers carry these groups? None that I can think of.

Zillions of other servers carry these groups. Eternal September
(www.eternal-september.org) carries all or nearly all. These all carry
some or all:

AIOE http://news.aioe.org/
Albasani http://albasani.net/index.html.en
CNNTP http://www.cnntp.org/cnntp - cnntp.org
ETT http://news.ett.com.ua/
http://www.eternal-september.org/
Tornevall http://news.tornevall.net/
Usenet4all http://www.usenet4all.se (blocks all posts from Google)
(Just send an e-mail to registration@usenet4all.se you will be
e-mailed your account information)

http://www.eternal-september.org/
newsadmin@datemas.de (send e-mail with 5-8 password)
http://aioe.org
http://freenews.maxbaud.net/
http://freenews.maxbaud.net/faq.html
http://www.news.x-privat.org
http://www.x-privat.org/international.php
http://cust.readfreenews.net/ (for posting access)
http://www.news.readfreenews.net
http://www.readfreenews.net
news.readfreenews.net
http://www.newzbot.com/
http://ecalame.tripod.com/free.html Sorry, but the page or the file
that you're looking for is not here.
http://www.newsservers.net/
http://www.yottanews.com (free.yottanews.com)

And ISP newsgroup servers - those that remain - usually carry the
ms.p.* hierarchy.



--
Tim Slattery
Slattery_T@bls.gov
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt