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Looking toward 7 - and 16 bit progs.

Discussion in 'Windows XP' started by Tony, Sep 5, 2010.

  1. Tony

    Tony Flightless Bird

    I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit legacy
    programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand I hear
    "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I hear that most
    will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Anyone know the
    straight dope on this? Thanks!

    Tony
     
  2. Tim Meddick

    Tim Meddick Flightless Bird

    If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you can
    always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual PC
    (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest" operating
    system.

    ==

    Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)




    "Tony" <labombarda@hollow.oak> wrote in message
    news:9OWdnWEvSMjP2RnR4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
    >I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit legacy
    >programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand I hear
    > "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I hear that most
    > will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Anyone know the
    > straight dope on this? Thanks!
    >
    > Tony
     
  3. Nil

    Nil Flightless Bird

    On 05 Sep 2010, Tony <labombarda@hollow.oak> wrote in
    microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:

    > I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit
    > legacy programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand
    > I hear "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I
    > hear that most will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7.
    > Anyone know the straight dope on this? Thanks!


    There is no straight dope. It will vary by program. Most 16-bit
    programs will run just fine under 32-bit Windows 7.
     
  4. Patok

    Patok Flightless Bird

    Tim Meddick wrote:
    > If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you can
    > always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual
    > PC (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest"
    > operating system.


    Can you install a DOS version in the VPC?

    --
    You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
    --
    Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.
     
  5. Tony

    Tony Flightless Bird

    On 9/5/2010 10:34 PM, Nil wrote:
    > On 05 Sep 2010, Tony<labombarda@hollow.oak> wrote in
    > microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
    >
    >> I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit
    >> legacy programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand
    >> I hear "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I
    >> hear that most will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7.
    >> Anyone know the straight dope on this? Thanks!

    >
    > There is no straight dope. It will vary by program. Most 16-bit
    > programs will run just fine under 32-bit Windows 7.



    I appreciate the "encouraging word" Nil - thank you.

    Tony
     
  6. Tim Meddick

    Tim Meddick Flightless Bird

    Microsoft Virtual PC (I have it on my XP PC) simulates a new PC with a BIOS
    setup program and no operating system.

    You create a "virtual" hard-drive, which is a file that resides on your own
    hard-drive, and choose a size for it.

    Likewise, you specify RAM (cannot be more than your PC has) for a given
    installation.

    You then install an OS to your virtual PC in exactly the same way as if it
    were a real PC.

    You can create as many "guest" operating systems as you like, and run them
    windowed, or full-screen.

    I have, to date, installed copies of :

    DOS5
    DOS6.22
    DOS7.1
    Win3.11
    Win95
    Win98SE
    WinME
    WinNT4
    WinXP Home
    Linux DSL

    Whereas, with something like Win98SE I installed it from a cd-rom ISO image
    file, with DOS I installed them either with a floppy disk or just used an
    image of one.

    VPC can use both the real cd/dvd or floppy drives attached to your system
    OR can use image files (ISO files for cd/dvds or IMA / VFD uncompressed
    disk images for floppies) as if they were real drives.

    *Being able to read & write to floppy images.

    Download Microsoft Virtual PC from :
    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...02-3199-48A3-AFA2-2DC0B40A73B6&displaylang=en

    Download DOS floppy disk images (for use with VPC or Winimage)
    from : http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm

    Also, you can use Winimage [free] to manipulate / read /write floppy
    disk images and ISO images from :
    http://www.winimage.com/download/winima85.exe



    ==

    Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)




    "Patok" <crazy.div.patok@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:i61kok$uo3$1@news.eternal-september.org...
    > Tim Meddick wrote:
    >> If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you can
    >> always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual
    >> PC (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest"
    >> operating system.

    >
    > Can you install a DOS version in the VPC?
    >
    > --
    > You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
    > --
    > Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.
     
  7. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Flightless Bird

    Patok wrote:

    > Tim Meddick wrote:
    >
    >> If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you can
    >> always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual
    >> PC (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest"
    >> operating system.

    >
    > Can you install a DOS version in the VPC?


    You can install any IBM/MS OS in a guest (VM). Question is if you can
    find the old IBM/MS-DOS to install (versus just getting a bootable
    kernel, like at bootdisk.com). There were some free DOS around (e.g.,
    FreeDOS).

    Be aware that any program that attempts direct access to the hardware
    will fail inside a VM. Direct calls to drivers or hardware interfaces
    are not allowed since the VM is still running atop of an NT-based
    version of Windows. Calls through the system API will work okay.

    As I recall, programs that load and rely on DPMI or other memory
    management schemes won't work inside a VM. If you have old DOS programs
    that require direct access to hardware or using memory mgmt schemes then
    better is to use multiple partitions and a boot manager to select
    between them where an NT-based version is in one partition and a
    DOS/Win9x-based version is in the other partition.

    Since the OP is asking in a Windows XP newsgroup, and ASSUMING that the
    DOS programs of interest actually installed and ran okay under Windows
    XP, then they should install and run okay in the Windows XP
    Compatibility Mode available in Windows 7. If that doesn't work, the OP
    might want to look at DosBox:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox
    http://www.dosbox.com/

    If the "legacy programs" are games, the DosBox site even has lists of
    old DOS games and remarks regarding their usability under DosBox.
     
  8. Bill in Co

    Bill in Co Flightless Bird

    If you've got to go to that trouble, it would be worth sticking with WinXP.
    (You can still get some used systems if needbe, methinks; I doubt if you can
    get them new anymore, though - which is really too bad. XP is bloated
    enough :).

    Tim Meddick wrote:
    > If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you can
    > always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual PC
    > (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest" operating
    > system.
    >
    > ==
    >
    > Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Tony" <labombarda@hollow.oak> wrote in message
    > news:9OWdnWEvSMjP2RnR4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
    >> I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit legacy
    >> programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand I hear
    >> "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I hear that most
    >> will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Anyone know the
    >> straight dope on this? Thanks!
    >>
    >> Tony
     
  9. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    PA Bear [MS MVP] Flightless Bird

    Why not check Win7 Help? => http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/help

    Or post your question in this forum? =>
    http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7programs/threads
    --
    ~PA Bear


    Tony wrote:
    > I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit legacy
    > programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand I hear
    > "Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I hear that most
    > will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Anyone know the
    > straight dope on this? Thanks!
     
  10. Tim Meddick

    Tim Meddick Flightless Bird

    While what you say is perfectly true concerning software running inside VPC
    and attempting to access hardware resources, with the exception of any
    cd/dvd drives and floppy disk drives attached to the system.

    The VPC application is able to gain access to these devices, as, if it
    could not, the installation of guest operating systems could not be done
    using cd/dvd-roms or by floppy disk.

    Having said all this, Virtual PC provides support for some PC's which
    posses Hardware Assisted Virtualization. Although this feature is not
    common, if your PC has it, hardware *would* then be accessible to a guest
    OS running in a VPC window.

    ==

    Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)




    "VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
    news:i61n3u$f4l$1@news.albasani.net...
    > Patok wrote:
    >
    >> Tim Meddick wrote:
    >>
    >>> If a program will not run in "XP Compatibility Mode" under Win7, you
    >>> can
    >>> always load a previous version of Windows to run in Microsoft's Virtual
    >>> PC (included with Win7) and run your software from under a "guest"
    >>> operating system.

    >>
    >> Can you install a DOS version in the VPC?

    >
    > You can install any IBM/MS OS in a guest (VM). Question is if you can
    > find the old IBM/MS-DOS to install (versus just getting a bootable
    > kernel, like at bootdisk.com). There were some free DOS around (e.g.,
    > FreeDOS).
    >
    > Be aware that any program that attempts direct access to the hardware
    > will fail inside a VM. Direct calls to drivers or hardware interfaces
    > are not allowed since the VM is still running atop of an NT-based
    > version of Windows. Calls through the system API will work okay.
    >
    > As I recall, programs that load and rely on DPMI or other memory
    > management schemes won't work inside a VM. If you have old DOS programs
    > that require direct access to hardware or using memory mgmt schemes then
    > better is to use multiple partitions and a boot manager to select
    > between them where an NT-based version is in one partition and a
    > DOS/Win9x-based version is in the other partition.
    >
    > Since the OP is asking in a Windows XP newsgroup, and ASSUMING that the
    > DOS programs of interest actually installed and ran okay under Windows
    > XP, then they should install and run okay in the Windows XP
    > Compatibility Mode available in Windows 7. If that doesn't work, the OP
    > might want to look at DosBox:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox
    > http://www.dosbox.com/
    >
    > If the "legacy programs" are games, the DosBox site even has lists of
    > old DOS games and remarks regarding their usability under DosBox.
     
  11. Paul

    Paul Flightless Bird

    Tim Meddick wrote:

    >
    > Having said all this, Virtual PC provides support for some PC's which
    > posses Hardware Assisted Virtualization. Although this feature is not
    > common, if your PC has it, hardware *would* then be accessible to a
    > guest OS running in a VPC window.
    >
    > ==
    >
    > Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)


    I've tested the Hardware Assisted Virtualization on VPC 2007 and
    can see no practical difference with it turned on or turned off.
    It makes a slight difference to the crashing problems some
    Linux distros have in that environment (some distros crash in VPC 2007),
    and in particular, some part of the Linux kernel seems to be interested in
    whether the environment is virtualized or not. Other than
    that, as far as I can see here, it's a giant no-op.

    I have a copy of Win2K running in VPC 2007 right now. Hardware
    virtualization is enabled in the interface (that "tick box" in the
    setup interface). This is what Everest (from Lavalys) shows.

    DEC 21140 Fast Ethernet Adapter
    Intel 82371AB PCI ISA IDE Xcelerator
    Intel 82371AB/EB PIIX4 - IDE Controller
    Intel 82371EB PIIX4E - Power Management Controller
    Intel 82443BX/ZX Host bridge/controller (AGP Disabled)
    S3 Trio32/Trio64 video adapter

    There is no evidence of access of native hardware in there.
    (My system is X48/ICH9, with an Nvidia video card,
    and none of it is visible. The above items are all emulated.)

    It's the same old emulated hardware that would be present
    if the hardware virtualization box was unticked. I'd certainly
    like to be shed of the S3 emulation, and would much prefer to
    see my Nvidia video card instead, but that isn't going to
    happen.

    *******

    I haven't had an opportunity to test this on AMD hardware (like AM2 or later),
    and perhaps VPC 2007 behaves differently in that case (like perhaps
    the IOMMU makes a difference). Maybe someone else could test that
    in VPC 2007 and see whether Everest reports more hardware is visible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_virtualization

    (Free version of Everest, sufficient for this test)

    http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

    *******

    It might also be fun, to run Everest in "WinXP Mode" on Windows 7,
    and see whether the bus looks any different than the above. I don't
    have Windows 7 here, so can't test that.

    Paul
     
  12. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Flightless Bird

    Tim Meddick wrote:

    > While what you say is perfectly true concerning software running inside VPC
    > and attempting to access hardware resources, with the exception of any
    > cd/dvd drives and floppy disk drives attached to the system.
    >
    > The VPC application is able to gain access to these devices, as, if it
    > could not, the installation of guest operating systems could not be done
    > using cd/dvd-roms or by floppy disk.
    >
    > Having said all this, Virtual PC provides support for some PC's which
    > posses Hardware Assisted Virtualization. Although this feature is not
    > common, if your PC has it, hardware *would* then be accessible to a guest
    > OS running in a VPC window.


    The only real hardware available inside a virtual machine is the CPU.
    All other hardware is emulated or a pass-through *driver* is used.
    Pass-through mode to connect a real CD drive to emulate a CD drive
    inside the VM is *not* accessing the hardware directly (which, for
    example, would be to access the hardware interface of a device by its
    address). The passthrough mode permits redirection of the emulated
    device to the kernel-mode driver for the real device. DOS programs that
    directly access the hardware weren't going through a driver which
    provided an API to the OS and apps running at kernel level to provide
    the actual physical interface to the device. The lack of a USB
    pass-through adapter in VirtualPC is why you can't use USB devices
    inside of it. HID devices, like mice and keyboard, are completely
    emulated (no pass-through mode) and why a USB foot pedal listed as a HID
    device in Device Manager still cannot be seen into the VM. While
    VirtualPC 2007 has no pass-through mode for USB devices, the Windows
    Virtual PC (XP Mode in Windows 7) does have a pass-through mode for USB
    devices. In Windows 7's XP mode, there is redirection permitted for USB
    storage devices. That redirection goes to the driver that provides the
    interface between OS and device. It is not providing direct access to
    the the device to an app, like the guest running under a VMM. Under
    DOS, you can access a device without using a driver for it. That's what
    I mean by direct access. For example, and only from memory, I think
    address 80 was for the first IDE mass storage device (hard disk) and 81
    was for the second one (in the order they were detected by the BIOS).
    It was possible to remove a hard disk partition by using debug.exe which
    sent commands directly to the device, not through system API calls or
    driver interfaces.

    The CPU is directly accessible but often reported by the VMM as
    something else (and how some malware can detect they are running inside
    a VM so they remain quiescent hoping you'll install them outside the
    VM). That's it. The pass-through drivers provide their own interface
    from the emulated device to the real hardware. The VMM on the host has
    to provide the redirection for the USB, serial, and parallel devices
    inside the guest. Because of this *redirection*, you can disconnect the
    guest's CD drive and connect it to any other physical drive on the host.
    All the rest is emulated hardware.

    HAV (hardware-assisted virtualization) only provides hardware-level code
    to more quickly what would be needed by software emulation. In some
    cases, HAV can actually slow the VM. As I recall reading about
    Sun/Oracle VirtualBox, they actually recommended disabling HAV because
    the made slower the responsiveness of their VM (i.e., the code for their
    software emulation was better optimized than the firmware on the CPU's
    die). HAV does *not* magically provide direct access to hardware
    devices from inside a VM. I don't recall if HAV helps or hinders
    performance for VPC. HAV is for helping the VMM (Virtual Machine
    Manager) do its job or to eliminate translation for guest system calls,
    not alter the emulated environment generated by the VMM. The VMM can
    use HAV. The HAV eliminates [some of] the abstraction layer needed
    between guest and VMM. Yeah, you can access hardware from the guest if
    you use standard kernel API calls but not if you attempt direct access
    to the hardware device's interface (i.e., you are not using the system
    API). The HAV assists the VMM, not bypasses it. It is an enabler for
    full virtualization so an unmodified OS can run as a guest (in a VM).
    Putting the translations for the abstraction layer or VM traps into
    firmware doesn't suddenly change how the scheme works. It facilitates
    the use of the faster hardware instead of having to use the slower
    software. Hardware is always faster than software (well, usually that's
    true unless the firmware is not optimized). The VMM remains in control
    of the virtualized environment that it defines to the guest. If it
    doesn't, it is a "leaky" VMM and not worthy as a contender in today's
    competition for VMMs.

    Do some reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware-assisted_virtualization
     
  13. Tim Meddick

    Tim Meddick Flightless Bird

    That is disappointing - and not at all what the literature implies when
    extolling the virtues of running VPC on a PC that supports Hardware
    Virtualization!

    ==

    Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)




    "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
    news:i63p7m$a4b$1@speranza.aioe.org...
    > Tim Meddick wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Having said all this, Virtual PC provides support for some PC's which
    >> posses Hardware Assisted Virtualization. Although this feature is not
    >> common, if your PC has it, hardware *would* then be accessible to a
    >> guest OS running in a VPC window.
    >>
    >> ==
    >>
    >> Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :)

    >
    > I've tested the Hardware Assisted Virtualization on VPC 2007 and
    > can see no practical difference with it turned on or turned off.
    > It makes a slight difference to the crashing problems some
    > Linux distros have in that environment (some distros crash in VPC 2007),
    > and in particular, some part of the Linux kernel seems to be interested
    > in
    > whether the environment is virtualized or not. Other than
    > that, as far as I can see here, it's a giant no-op.
    >
    > I have a copy of Win2K running in VPC 2007 right now. Hardware
    > virtualization is enabled in the interface (that "tick box" in the
    > setup interface). This is what Everest (from Lavalys) shows.
    >
    > DEC 21140 Fast Ethernet Adapter
    > Intel 82371AB PCI ISA IDE Xcelerator
    > Intel 82371AB/EB PIIX4 - IDE Controller
    > Intel 82371EB PIIX4E - Power Management Controller
    > Intel 82443BX/ZX Host bridge/controller (AGP Disabled)
    > S3 Trio32/Trio64 video adapter
    >
    > There is no evidence of access of native hardware in there.
    > (My system is X48/ICH9, with an Nvidia video card,
    > and none of it is visible. The above items are all emulated.)
    >
    > It's the same old emulated hardware that would be present
    > if the hardware virtualization box was unticked. I'd certainly
    > like to be shed of the S3 emulation, and would much prefer to
    > see my Nvidia video card instead, but that isn't going to
    > happen.
    >
    > *******
    >
    > I haven't had an opportunity to test this on AMD hardware (like AM2 or
    > later),
    > and perhaps VPC 2007 behaves differently in that case (like perhaps
    > the IOMMU makes a difference). Maybe someone else could test that
    > in VPC 2007 and see whether Everest reports more hardware is visible.
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_virtualization
    >
    > (Free version of Everest, sufficient for this test)
    >
    > http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html
    >
    > *******
    >
    > It might also be fun, to run Everest in "WinXP Mode" on Windows 7,
    > and see whether the bus looks any different than the above. I don't
    > have Windows 7 here, so can't test that.
    >
    > Paul
     
  14. Tim Slattery

    Tim Slattery Flightless Bird

    Tony <labombarda@hollow.oak> wrote:

    >I see Windows 7 on my horizon, and I also have several 16 bit legacy
    >programs I've used for years and want to keep. On one hand I hear
    >"Windows 7 and 16 bit? Fahgeddaboutit". On the other I hear that most
    >will work OK in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Anyone know the
    >straight dope on this? Thanks!


    The 64-bit versions of MS's operating systems won't run 16-bit
    programs. That can be overcome by using a virtual machine. The 32-bit
    versions of the OSs - including 32-bit Win7 - will run 16-bit
    programs. A few older programs that try to access hardware directly
    will have problems, but most will run fine.

    --
    Tim Slattery
    Slattery_T@bls.gov
    http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
     

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