I want to change from NTFS to FAT32

[mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com]

I just bought a used computer, complete with a licensed copy of
Windows XP Pro SP3. I bought the computer from a guy who bought a
whole batch of them from some office and was reselling them. They
came with a legal license serial number on the computer for XP Pro.
He wiped the drive and resinstalled XP along with some other licensed
commercial stuff and some freeware. All in all, what I got was a
ready to run computer, including everything except the monitor.

I have never owned XP, and was still using Win98 and Win2000 mostly
because of a slow computer and the fact I did not want to purchase XP.
Instead, I bought the whole computer which is 3 times faster than my
old one, for what I would have paid for XP.

But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).

IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
(I do not want to reinstall).

I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
drive.

Of course I'll backup first....

But will XP run when changing the drive from NTFS to FAT32?

If for some reason I cant get Partition Magic to work, I have a USB
plug in harddrive that I can copy everything to, and replace it later.

Another thing, will I need to re-activate XP with MS after doing this?

----

Another question. The guy did not have the original XP Cd. He gave
me a Dell Cd for XP. This is not a Dell computer. I inderstand that
those "branded ones" dont install properly, or can not be activated,
or something like that..... What's the deal with this?
-OR-
Can I just get a friend to burn me a generic version of XP pro and use
the license on the computer if I needed to reinstall? (not sure how
legal this is, but I'm not too worried about it since I do have the
legal license, and it's just for home use).

----

Lastly, to copy XP to my external USB drive, I know there are some
files that will not copy. In Win98, it's the SWAP FILE. In Win2000,
it's PAGEFILE.SYS and parts of Documents and Settings folder. What
will not copy in XP? Is it the same as Win2000? How do I backup the
Documents and Settings folder in XP? (I prefer direct copies, not a
backup software).

Thanks for all help.

Mister Friendly

 

[Pegasus [MVP]]

*** See below.

<mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com> wrote in message
news:m33ct5p34g5bghcr0476vj5dgqqgkhc6co@4ax.com...
> I just bought a used computer, complete with a licensed copy of
> Windows XP Pro SP3. I bought the computer from a guy who bought a
> whole batch of them from some office and was reselling them. They
> came with a legal license serial number on the computer for XP Pro.
> He wiped the drive and resinstalled XP along with some other licensed
> commercial stuff and some freeware. All in all, what I got was a
> ready to run computer, including everything except the monitor.
>
> I have never owned XP, and was still using Win98 and Win2000 mostly
> because of a slow computer and the fact I did not want to purchase XP.
> Instead, I bought the whole computer which is 3 times faster than my
> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>
> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>
> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
> (I do not want to reinstall).
*** Yes, it will.
>
> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
> drive.
>
> Of course I'll backup first....
>
> But will XP run when changing the drive from NTFS to FAT32?
*** Yes again.

> If for some reason I cant get Partition Magic to work, I have a USB
> plug in harddrive that I can copy everything to, and replace it later.
>
> Another thing, will I need to re-activate XP with MS after doing this?
*** No.

> ----
>
> Another question. The guy did not have the original XP Cd. He gave
> me a Dell Cd for XP. This is not a Dell computer. I inderstand that
> those "branded ones" dont install properly, or can not be activated,
> or something like that..... What's the deal with this?
*** The CD might lack the hardware-specific drivers.

> -OR-
> Can I just get a friend to burn me a generic version of XP pro and use
> the license on the computer if I needed to reinstall? (not sure how
> legal this is, but I'm not too worried about it since I do have the
> legal license, and it's just for home use).
*** You can, provided that his copy matches your product key
(OEM/Retail/Home/Professional).

> ----
>
> Lastly, to copy XP to my external USB drive, I know there are some
> files that will not copy. In Win98, it's the SWAP FILE. In Win2000,
> it's PAGEFILE.SYS and parts of Documents and Settings folder. What
> will not copy in XP? Is it the same as Win2000? How do I backup the
> Documents and Settings folder in XP? (I prefer direct copies, not a
> backup software).
*** By connecting the disk as a slave disk to your Win2000 machine.

>
> Thanks for all help.
>
> Mister Friendly
>
>

 

[Lem]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
> I just bought a used computer, complete with a licensed copy of
> Windows XP Pro SP3. I bought the computer from a guy who bought a
> whole batch of them from some office and was reselling them. They
> came with a legal license serial number on the computer for XP Pro.
> He wiped the drive and resinstalled XP along with some other licensed
> commercial stuff and some freeware. All in all, what I got was a
> ready to run computer, including everything except the monitor.
>
> I have never owned XP, and was still using Win98 and Win2000 mostly
> because of a slow computer and the fact I did not want to purchase XP.
> Instead, I bought the whole computer which is 3 times faster than my
> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>
> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>
> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
> (I do not want to reinstall).
>
> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
> drive.
>
> Of course I'll backup first....
>
> But will XP run when changing the drive from NTFS to FAT32?
>
> If for some reason I cant get Partition Magic to work, I have a USB
> plug in harddrive that I can copy everything to, and replace it later.
>
> Another thing, will I need to re-activate XP with MS after doing this?
>
> ----
>
> Another question. The guy did not have the original XP Cd. He gave
> me a Dell Cd for XP. This is not a Dell computer. I inderstand that
> those "branded ones" dont install properly, or can not be activated,
> or something like that..... What's the deal with this?
> -OR-
> Can I just get a friend to burn me a generic version of XP pro and use
> the license on the computer if I needed to reinstall? (not sure how
> legal this is, but I'm not too worried about it since I do have the
> legal license, and it's just for home use).
>
> ----
>
> Lastly, to copy XP to my external USB drive, I know there are some
> files that will not copy. In Win98, it's the SWAP FILE. In Win2000,
> it's PAGEFILE.SYS and parts of Documents and Settings folder. What
> will not copy in XP? Is it the same as Win2000? How do I backup the
> Documents and Settings folder in XP? (I prefer direct copies, not a
> backup software).
>
> Thanks for all help.
>
> Mister Friendly
>
>

I don't know what you mean by "copy XP to my external USB drive." You
can't "copy" the operating system and then copy it back after you've
FDisk'd the original disk (other than using an image or disk clone,
which you said you didn't want to do). If all you're talking about is
copying *data* then just copy the files and/or folders using whatever
method you like, drag-n-drop, copy, xcopy, robocopy, or other utility.

Unless the "other licensed commercial stuff" is very simplistic, you
also can't just copy those applications. Most apps these days must be
"installed," which typically involves creating a lot of entries
scattered throughout the Windows registry.

You can't convert from NTFS to FAT32 using the native Windows tool
Convert. You can, as you seem to recognize, do it using the
no-longer-supported application Partition Magic. Given that you have
essentially a just-installed system, you *probably* won't have any
problems converting to FAT32, but check the user guide for your version
of Partition Magic for "Restrictions on Converting NTFS Partitions to
FAT or FAT32" and "NTFS Information Lost When Converting to FAT or FAT32."

I'm not familiar with all of the details of Windows authorization, but
it's my understanding that the major OEMs, like Dell, "BIOS-lock" the XP
install CD that they provide to machines with their proprietary BIOS.
That is, a Dell XP install CD probably will *not* install on a non-Dell
pc. However, as Pegasus said, you can use your XP license with an XP
install CD of the same type.

--
Lem

Apollo 11 - 40 years ago:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/40th/index.html

 

[Doum]

Lem <lemp40@unknownhost> écrivait
newsCkAYTZ5KHA.3292@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

<snip>
>
> I'm not familiar with all of the details of Windows authorization, but
> it's my understanding that the major OEMs, like Dell, "BIOS-lock" the
> XP install CD that they provide to machines with their proprietary
> BIOS. That is, a Dell XP install CD probably will *not* install on a
> non-Dell pc. However, as Pegasus said, you can use your XP license
> with an XP install CD of the same type.
>

The way I understand it is OEM's "Recovery disks" (to take the computer
back to brand new state) are BIOS locked and don't need activation.

But if the disk is a branded "XP Installation CD" used to format and
install from scratch (like Dell used to supply) they might install on non-
Dell machine but the user will have to provide the drivers for his hardware
like he would with a generic XP disk.

I don't have experience with that procedure though but I think it must work
because many "retailers" sell Dell branded XP installation disks on eBay
and they claim it works and they have good feedback from buyers.

 

[Paul]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
> I just bought a used computer, complete with a licensed copy of
> Windows XP Pro SP3. I bought the computer from a guy who bought a
> whole batch of them from some office and was reselling them. They
> came with a legal license serial number on the computer for XP Pro.
> He wiped the drive and resinstalled XP along with some other licensed
> commercial stuff and some freeware. All in all, what I got was a
> ready to run computer, including everything except the monitor.
>
> I have never owned XP, and was still using Win98 and Win2000 mostly
> because of a slow computer and the fact I did not want to purchase XP.
> Instead, I bought the whole computer which is 3 times faster than my
> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>
> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>
> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
> (I do not want to reinstall).
>
> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
> drive.
>
> Of course I'll backup first....
>
> But will XP run when changing the drive from NTFS to FAT32?
>
> If for some reason I cant get Partition Magic to work, I have a USB
> plug in harddrive that I can copy everything to, and replace it later.
>
> Another thing, will I need to re-activate XP with MS after doing this?
>
> ----
>
> Another question. The guy did not have the original XP Cd. He gave
> me a Dell Cd for XP. This is not a Dell computer. I inderstand that
> those "branded ones" dont install properly, or can not be activated,
> or something like that..... What's the deal with this?
> -OR-
> Can I just get a friend to burn me a generic version of XP pro and use
> the license on the computer if I needed to reinstall? (not sure how
> legal this is, but I'm not too worried about it since I do have the
> legal license, and it's just for home use).
>
> ----
>
> Lastly, to copy XP to my external USB drive, I know there are some
> files that will not copy. In Win98, it's the SWAP FILE. In Win2000,
> it's PAGEFILE.SYS and parts of Documents and Settings folder. What
> will not copy in XP? Is it the same as Win2000? How do I backup the
> Documents and Settings folder in XP? (I prefer direct copies, not a
> backup software).
>
> Thanks for all help.
>
> Mister Friendly
>
>

My opinion would be, a good many of your queries and requirements, could
be covered by a good backup strategy. For example, if you have a large
external drive, you can make "images" of your C: drive, in case of
a disaster. Then, it doesn't matter whether the OS is NTFS or FAT32, you're
covered. As long as the backup software supports "bare metal recovery", you
can put all the data back on there. ("Bare metal recovery" usually involves
burning a recovery CD, and that is how you boot the "empty" or "bare" computer.)
You can make an image per day, if C: is small enough, and be able to undo
damage by picking the day you want, from the backup disk.

I copy my OS, by using a second OS. My machine has WinXP and Win2K, and I
boot Win2K when doing backups of the C: that has WinXP. If that sounds like
it costs too much money, you can use Ubuntu or Knoppix (Linux), and do
copying in that environment. I use "dd", which is a sector by
sector "disk dump" tool, to make complete images of Windows partitions.
I was running that a couple days ago, at about 50MB/sec, and making an
exact copy of C: on a backup partition on the second drive. While I
could also try to copy "file by file" in Linux, I doubt NTFS attributes
would be preserved that way (I've never tested that). "dd" on the other hand,
preserves everything, because it copies every sector exactly. So right now,
I have a 78GB image file on my backup drive. If my WinXP were to break
30 seconds from now, I can reload that image onto the area used for C:.

That doesn't answer the question, of how you'd reinstall the OS. But
the faster you make at least one backup of what you've got, you have
at least one other option available to you later. You can always go back
to the known-working C: image you've got right now. If you can make a
backup, before you're struck by malware or a virus, then that gives
you another option for recovery. So backups can be a poor man's
alternative to having the right install CD to use.

You can get a Knoppix CD here. Knoppix can read/write to NTFS or FAT32.
Ubuntu is another option.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html

The last one I tried, is KNOPPIX_V6.2.1CD-2010-01-31-EN.iso . I use Nero
to burn a bootable CD, based on the ISO9660 download. The download size
is 721,999,872 bytes. If you're on dialup, well, forget it The phone
company would hang up the line, before the download finished.

Paul

 

[News123]

Hi,

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
> I just bought a used computer, complete with a licensed copy of
> Windows XP Pro SP3. I bought the computer from a guy who bought a
.. . .

> I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>

I personally would NOT switch to a DOS file system.
I'd suggest yo use partitio nmagic and create one partition for your DOS
programs and keep the majority under NTFS.

NTFS is already some years old and well, has some advantages over DOS
file systems.

If the system fails, then you can still boot from a small Linux on a CD
or USB-stick and read and copy the NTFS data.

The better strategy to avoid data loss is in any case to have a backup
medium (e.g. an external USB disk with your user data)


bye

N

 

[John Doue]

On 4/27/2010 1:22 AM, mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
snip
> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>
> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>
> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
> (I do not want to reinstall).
>
> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
> drive.

snip

I believe all your questions have more or less been answered; what
remains is, what is the probability Partition Magic will do what you
want? Until you try, it is impossible to tell for sure.

As Lem said, since your system is basically a newly installed one, this
may work. May be try this surgery with a more recent program would be a
better bet. EASEUS Partition Master or Acronis Disk Director might be
safer, especially if you are dealing with a large partition, say, over 80G.

I am surprised nobody came to discuss the reasons you want to go back to
Fat32. People usually get very excited on this topic. Personally, I have
been sticking to FAT 32 and this is one of the many reasons I have kept
using XP. I did once try NFTS and the first thing I noticed was the
performance impact. Then, when my system crashed, I discovered how
difficult it is to repair a NTFS partition if you are not an IT
professional. I had to reinstall. Since I never found myself with a
crashed FAT 32 partition I could not repair, the decision was quickly
made to go back to FAT 32.

Until I need an application that runs only on W7 and NTFS, I will stay
with XP. This time is probably decades away!

Good luck.
--
John Doue

 

[mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 107:47 +0300, John Doue <notwobe@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 4/27/2010 1:22 AM, mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>snip
>> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>>
>> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
>> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
>> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
>> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
>> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
>> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>>
>> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
>> (I do not want to reinstall).
>>
>> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
>> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
>> drive.
>
>snip
>
>I believe all your questions have more or less been answered; what
>remains is, what is the probability Partition Magic will do what you
>want? Until you try, it is impossible to tell for sure.
>
>As Lem said, since your system is basically a newly installed one, this
>may work. May be try this surgery with a more recent program would be a
>better bet. EASEUS Partition Master or Acronis Disk Director might be
>safer, especially if you are dealing with a large partition, say, over 80G.
>
>I am surprised nobody came to discuss the reasons you want to go back to
>Fat32. People usually get very excited on this topic. Personally, I have
>been sticking to FAT 32 and this is one of the many reasons I have kept
>using XP. I did once try NFTS and the first thing I noticed was the
>performance impact. Then, when my system crashed, I discovered how
>difficult it is to repair a NTFS partition if you are not an IT
>professional. I had to reinstall. Since I never found myself with a
>crashed FAT 32 partition I could not repair, the decision was quickly
>made to go back to FAT 32.
>
>Until I need an application that runs only on W7 and NTFS, I will stay
>with XP. This time is probably decades away!
>
>Good luck.

My first encounter with XP (aside from just playing around with it),
was when a friend's computer crashed. I had always helped him when
his Win98 computer failed, and now his one year old brand new computer
was completely crashed. He had lots of important photos, and months
of work with some geneology stuff he was doing.

I spent a full 10 or 11 hours one day trying to get that thing to run.
I used the repair cd, I tried to reinstall XP on top of the failed
boot. I booted from Dos floppies, I even installed Win98 on another
drive, and tried to connect the XP drive as a slave. No matter what I
did, it was hopeless. He ended up losing everything.

It was that moment when I said that I'd never use XP. I have been
running Win98 since 1998, and no matter how badly 98 has gotten messed
up, I was always able to retrieve the data, just losing some of the OS
files, which can be easily replaced. I swore I'd never install XP and
quite honestly I hated it, after seeing what happened to that friends
computer.

It was several years later that I learned it was not XP, but that damn
NTFS format that caused the loss of data. That was about the same
time I installed Windows 2000 on an old laptop that I had gotten,
which came with Win98, but in order to use the addon WIFI card, it
required Win2000 or XP. As soon as I installed Win2000, I quickly
found that I could not use Dos. That's when I learned that I could
install Win2000 on a Fat32 partition. I reinstalled it after
formatting to Fat32, and it's worked better and ran well ever since.
Eventually the harddrive was failing, and I was still able to retrieve
the data before the drive totally fried.

Well, I finally decided to upgrade to XP, only because I was able to
buy a much newer and faster, used computer for less than it would cost
to buy a copy of XP. I am quite pleased with the increased power and
other new features. However I did not even bother to ask the seller
about the drive format at the time. The seller lives several hundred
miles away, because I bought the computer while I was on a trip and
saw an ad for it, at a price I could not refuse.

So, when I got home, I found out that it was a NTFS format and I got a
lump in my throat. I dont mind learning the new OS, and I still have
my older computer to use, but I simply do not want the NTFS format.
But without the "original" Cd, I am a little unsure about whether I
can get it to run if I needed to reinstall, and he also installed
other software that I do not have the original programs.

I have changed partition sizes and added partitions and more, on my
Win98 and Win2000 computers without any problems, using Partition
Magic. So, I would hope that it would work the same way in XP. My
other thought was to keep just XP in a very small partition (Drive C)
and use partition magic to create a Drive D partition, where I'd keep
all my data on D. That way only the OS would be in a NTFS partition,
and D: would be Fat32. But in the end, I still would rather change
everything to Fat32.

It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.


Mister Friendly

 

[HeyBub]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>
> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>
> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
> (I do not want to reinstall).

1. Neither your DOS program nor XP has any knowledge of, nor can it (easily)
determine, the file system used by the OS. Virtually any DOS program will
work on NTFS (actually better - NTFS is much faster than FAT).

2. NTFS may fail, but it is FAR less likely to do so than a FAT partition.

a) NTFS is "self-healing" in that it can correct physical errors it
encounters - not all, to be sure, but many.
b) NTFS continually monitors its health and will warn you when it detects
impending doom. For example, if a FAT partition encounters a write or read
error, it simply retries the action. If, on the 50th attempt to read, it is
successful, it merely goes on as if nothing had happened. Not so NTFS; NTFS
keeps track of this sort of crap and warns you of imminent failure.

3. If an NTFS partition "fails" it can be recovered - admittedly with
different tools - as successfully as a FAT partition.

4. Virtually ALL crucial files, in every enterprise, large or small, is
NTFS. Techniods and experts who know far more than you or I chose NTFS over
FAT for exactly the reasons that concern you. Be assured that the American
Airlines reservation system or the payroll program for Honest Eddie's Used
Cars is NOT running on a FAT disk!

5. Trying to minimize a catastrophic failure is no excuse for insufficient
backups.

Further I suggest you do not know of ANYBODY whose data could not be
recovered from an NTFS partition that, had they been using a FAT partition,
would have been in a better position.

 

[HeyBub]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>
> It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
> still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.
>

Name one program. Just one.

Unless the DOS program is fiddling with the disk at the hardware level - not
the API level, at specific track and sector level - the DOS program cannot
tell it's working with an NTFS partition.

It's the same concept as data coming over a network: the receiving computer
has no knowledge of the operating system that generated the data packet.

Many commercial programs say, on their box, that they require Win98, WinXP,
etc. I have NEVER seen a commercial program that required a particular file
system.

And, within all human reason, neither has anybody else.

 

[John John - MVP]

HeyBub wrote:
> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>> It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
>> still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.
>>
>
> Name one program. Just one.
>
> Unless the DOS program is fiddling with the disk at the hardware level - not
> the API level, at specific track and sector level - the DOS program cannot
> tell it's working with an NTFS partition.

And NT operating systems do not permit direct access to hardware so if
the DOS application needs direct disk access it still wouldn't work even
if it were on FAT or FAT32 drives. As you said, the file system is
completely irrelevant, either the application runs on XP or it doesn't,
installing XP on FAT32 won't make the DOS application work any more than
it would on NTFS.

John

 

[Paul Randall]

"HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eMQJ0ag5KHA.5016@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>>
>> It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
>> still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.
>>
>
> Name one program. Just one.

OK, I think this is one: MSDOS. If you boot from a DOS CD or thumb drive or
floppy, none of the NTFS drives show up. So most DOS programs run under
that DOS bootup will not see those NTFS drives either. There are, of
course, some exceptions, likeNorton's GDisk.

-Paul Randall

>
> Unless the DOS program is fiddling with the disk at the hardware level -
> not the API level, at specific track and sector level - the DOS program
> cannot tell it's working with an NTFS partition.
>
> It's the same concept as data coming over a network: the receiving
> computer has no knowledge of the operating system that generated the data
> packet.
>
> Many commercial programs say, on their box, that they require Win98,
> WinXP, etc. I have NEVER seen a commercial program that required a
> particular file system.
>
> And, within all human reason, neither has anybody else.
>

 

[John John - MVP]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:

> My first encounter with XP (aside from just playing around with it),
> was when a friend's computer crashed. I had always helped him when
> his Win98 computer failed, and now his one year old brand new computer
> was completely crashed. He had lots of important photos, and months
> of work with some geneology stuff he was doing.

If he didn't bother making a backup his photos and time couldn't have
been all that important to him.


> I spent a full 10 or 11 hours one day trying to get that thing to run.
> I used the repair cd, I tried to reinstall XP on top of the failed
> boot. I booted from Dos floppies, I even installed Win98 on another
> drive, and tried to connect the XP drive as a slave. No matter what I
> did, it was hopeless. He ended up losing everything.

Would you try to mount (slave) a FAT32 drive on a DOS 6.0 or a Windows
95A operating system? No? Why not? What made you think that Windows
98 could read NTFS?


> It was that moment when I said that I'd never use XP. I have been
> running Win98 since 1998, and no matter how badly 98 has gotten messed
> up, I was always able to retrieve the data, just losing some of the OS
> files, which can be easily replaced. I swore I'd never install XP and
> quite honestly I hated it, after seeing what happened to that friends
> computer.
>
> It was several years later that I learned it was not XP, but that damn
> NTFS format that caused the loss of data.

So, how did you come to the conclusion that NTFS caused the data loss?
What tangible evidence to that have you got? If you were to mount an
ext2/3 or Reiser disk in a Windows XP machine would you declare all the
files on the disk lost because XP couldn't read it? And would you blame
the Linux file system for the 'apparent' loss of files?


> That was about the same
> time I installed Windows 2000 on an old laptop that I had gotten,
> which came with Win98, but in order to use the addon WIFI card, it
> required Win2000 or XP. As soon as I installed Win2000, I quickly
> found that I could not use Dos. That's when I learned that I could
> install Win2000 on a Fat32 partition. I reinstalled it after
> formatting to Fat32, and it's worked better and ran well ever since.
> Eventually the harddrive was failing, and I was still able to retrieve
> the data before the drive totally fried.

So you still hadn't learned your lesson... along the same line you might
one day find out that its too late to buy house insurance when your
house is on fire...


> Well, I finally decided to upgrade to XP, only because I was able to
> buy a much newer and faster, used computer for less than it would cost
> to buy a copy of XP. I am quite pleased with the increased power and
> other new features. However I did not even bother to ask the seller
> about the drive format at the time. The seller lives several hundred
> miles away, because I bought the computer while I was on a trip and
> saw an ad for it, at a price I could not refuse.
>
> So, when I got home, I found out that it was a NTFS format and I got a
> lump in my throat. I dont mind learning the new OS, and I still have
> my older computer to use, but I simply do not want the NTFS format.
> But without the "original" Cd, I am a little unsure about whether I
> can get it to run if I needed to reinstall, and he also installed
> other software that I do not have the original programs.
>
> I have changed partition sizes and added partitions and more, on my
> Win98 and Win2000 computers without any problems, using Partition
> Magic. So, I would hope that it would work the same way in XP. My
> other thought was to keep just XP in a very small partition (Drive C)
> and use partition magic to create a Drive D partition, where I'd keep
> all my data on D. That way only the OS would be in a NTFS partition,
> and D: would be Fat32. But in the end, I still would rather change
> everything to Fat32.
>
> It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
> still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.

Unless you are dual booting to DOS the file system is completely
irrelevant to the DOS application, either it works on XP or it doesn't.

With all due respect, your post simply points to two immutable computing
facts:

1- It doesn't matter which operating system or which file system you
use, sooner or later anyone without a proper backup will lose files.
Happens to Mac users, happens to Linux users, happens to Sun/Unix users
and, oh God, does it too ever happen to Windows 98 users!

2- People who don't understand how "it" works or how to fix "it" blame
the computer, or the operating system, or the file system, or their
kids, or their kid sister, or their aging parents or....

John

 

[John John - MVP]

Paul Randall wrote:
> "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eMQJ0ag5KHA.5016@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>>> It's good to know that some of the linux Cds can access NTFS, but I
>>> still run several pure DOS apps that will not run in NTFS.
>>>
>> Name one program. Just one.
>
> OK, I think this is one: MSDOS.

That's not a program, it's an operating system!

> If you boot from a DOS CD or thumb drive or
> floppy, none of the NTFS drives show up.

Well gee, how surprising! It's no secret that DOS can't read NTFS... no
more than it is that DOS versions prior to 6.2 can't read FAT32!

John

 

[John Doue]

On 4/27/2010 31 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>>
>> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
>> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
>> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
>> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
>> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
>> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>>
>> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
>> (I do not want to reinstall).
>
> 1. Neither your DOS program nor XP has any knowledge of, nor can it (easily)
> determine, the file system used by the OS. Virtually any DOS program will
> work on NTFS (actually better - NTFS is much faster than FAT).
>
> 2. NTFS may fail, but it is FAR less likely to do so than a FAT partition.
>
> a) NTFS is "self-healing" in that it can correct physical errors it
> encounters - not all, to be sure, but many.
> b) NTFS continually monitors its health and will warn you when it detects
> impending doom. For example, if a FAT partition encounters a write or read
> error, it simply retries the action. If, on the 50th attempt to read, it is
> successful, it merely goes on as if nothing had happened. Not so NTFS; NTFS
> keeps track of this sort of crap and warns you of imminent failure.
>
> 3. If an NTFS partition "fails" it can be recovered - admittedly with
> different tools - as successfully as a FAT partition.
>
> 4. Virtually ALL crucial files, in every enterprise, large or small, is
> NTFS. Techniods and experts who know far more than you or I chose NTFS over
> FAT for exactly the reasons that concern you. Be assured that the American
> Airlines reservation system or the payroll program for Honest Eddie's Used
> Cars is NOT running on a FAT disk!
>
> 5. Trying to minimize a catastrophic failure is no excuse for insufficient
> backups.
>
> Further I suggest you do not know of ANYBODY whose data could not be
> recovered from an NTFS partition that, had they been using a FAT partition,
> would have been in a better position.
>
>
>
You are right on all counts - although I find a performance impact for
NTFS, which is natural since it monitors and writes far more elements
than NTFS - but for one crucial element: neither the OP, nor I as a
matter of fact, are IT professionals. All things being equal in terms of
*expertise*, recovering a FAT 32 partition is probably easier in most cases.

And I suggest that large entities would not bother with Windows, but
with Unix or Linux, which makes your point kind of moot.

--
John Doue

 

[Pegasus [MVP]]

<mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com> wrote in message
news:locdt5lvht04eug3lnddo2lutlgjedi2cv@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 107:47 +0300, John Doue <notwobe@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Mister Friendly

It seems you have a tendency to draw conclusions based on an extremely small
sample size (to be precise: a sample of one). When your friend had a problem
with his computer, you concluded that the fault was with Windows XP. One
sample, one firm conclusion. Later on you found you were wrong (surprise,
surprise), so you concluded that the problem was with NTFS. Your method of
reasoning is equivalent to saying that Ford motor cars are unsafe after your
neighbour slammed his Ford into a tree while at the same time ignoring that
he was drunk, was using his mobile phone while driving and was giving a
cyclist the two-finger salute through the open Window.

 

[philo]

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 107:47 +0300, John Doue <notwobe@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 1:22 AM, mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>> snip
>>> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>>>
>>> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
>>> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
>>> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
>>> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
>>> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
>>> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>>>
>>> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
>>> (I do not want to reinstall).
>>>
>>> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
>>> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
>>> drive.
>> snip
>>
>> I believe all your questions have more or less been answered; what
>> remains is, what is the probability Partition Magic will do what you
>> want? Until you try, it is impossible to tell for sure.
>>
>> As Lem said, since your system is basically a newly installed one, this
>> may work. May be try this surgery with a more recent program would be a
>> better bet. EASEUS Partition Master or Acronis Disk Director might be
>> safer, especially if you are dealing with a large partition, say, over 80G.
>>
>> I am surprised nobody came to discuss the reasons you want to go back to
>> Fat32. People usually get very excited on this topic. Personally, I have
>> been sticking to FAT 32 and this is one of the many reasons I have kept
>> using XP. I did once try NFTS and the first thing I noticed was the
>> performance impact. Then, when my system crashed, I discovered how
>> difficult it is to repair a NTFS partition if you are not an IT
>> professional. I had to reinstall. Since I never found myself with a
>> crashed FAT 32 partition I could not repair, the decision was quickly
>> made to go back to FAT 32.
>>
>> Until I need an application that runs only on W7 and NTFS, I will stay
>> with XP. This time is probably decades away!
>>
>> Good luck.
>
> My first encounter with XP (aside from just playing around with it),
> was when a friend's computer crashed. I had always helped him when
> his Win98 computer failed, and now his one year old brand new computer
> was completely crashed. He had lots of important photos, and months
> of work with some geneology stuff he was doing.
>
> I spent a full 10 or 11 hours one day trying to get that thing to run.
> I used the repair cd, I tried to reinstall XP on top of the failed
> boot. I booted from Dos floppies, I even installed Win98 on another
> drive, and tried to connect the XP drive as a slave. No matter what I
> did, it was hopeless. He ended up losing everything.
Big mistake

No way could you have accessed an NTFS partition from win98 or dos

All you would have to have done was install XP on another drive
then slave the old drive to it...and all the data would have been there
Hope you kept the drive > The reason the data was lost was simply
because you did not understand NTFS.

No need to be paranoid...
I'd leave your machine as NTFS and you can always recover the data from
your win2k machine or from a live Linux cd

That said: if you insist...you can convert NTFS to Fat32 by using
Partition Magic. In theory it will work...but there is always
the possibility of failure...especially with the boot sector...
so I'd not risk it.

 

[Bill in Co.]

philo wrote:
> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 107:47 +0300, John Doue <notwobe@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 1:22 AM, mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>>> snip
>>>> old one, for what I would have paid for XP.
>>>>
>>>> But there is one problem. He installed it using the NTFS format. I
>>>> DO NOT want NTFS. (Two reasons, 1. I still use some dos software, 2.
>>>> NTFS scares me, because if Windows fails on Fat32, I can still access
>>>> the data from Dos, but I know far too many people who lost all their
>>>> data when a NTFS partition failed. I know that XP will run almost as
>>>> well on a Fat32 partition (just like my Win2000 works fine on Fat32).
>>>>
>>>> IF I CHANGE THE FORMAT FROM NTFS TO FAT32, WILL XP STILL RUN?
>>>> (I do not want to reinstall).
>>>>
>>>> I have "Partition Magic", which will not only change the partition
>>>> without losing all the data, but can even make partitions on one
>>>> drive.
>>> snip
>>>
>>> I believe all your questions have more or less been answered; what
>>> remains is, what is the probability Partition Magic will do what you
>>> want? Until you try, it is impossible to tell for sure.
>>>
>>> As Lem said, since your system is basically a newly installed one, this
>>> may work. May be try this surgery with a more recent program would be a
>>> better bet. EASEUS Partition Master or Acronis Disk Director might be
>>> safer, especially if you are dealing with a large partition, say, over
>>> 80G.
>>>
>>> I am surprised nobody came to discuss the reasons you want to go back to
>>> Fat32. People usually get very excited on this topic. Personally, I have
>>> been sticking to FAT 32 and this is one of the many reasons I have kept
>>> using XP. I did once try NFTS and the first thing I noticed was the
>>> performance impact. Then, when my system crashed, I discovered how
>>> difficult it is to repair a NTFS partition if you are not an IT
>>> professional. I had to reinstall. Since I never found myself with a
>>> crashed FAT 32 partition I could not repair, the decision was quickly
>>> made to go back to FAT 32.
>>>
>>> Until I need an application that runs only on W7 and NTFS, I will stay
>>> with XP. This time is probably decades away!
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>
>> My first encounter with XP (aside from just playing around with it),
>> was when a friend's computer crashed. I had always helped him when
>> his Win98 computer failed, and now his one year old brand new computer
>> was completely crashed. He had lots of important photos, and months
>> of work with some geneology stuff he was doing.
>>
>> I spent a full 10 or 11 hours one day trying to get that thing to run.
>> I used the repair cd, I tried to reinstall XP on top of the failed
>> boot. I booted from Dos floppies, I even installed Win98 on another
>> drive, and tried to connect the XP drive as a slave. No matter what I
>> did, it was hopeless. He ended up losing everything.
> Big mistake
>
> No way could you have accessed an NTFS partition from win98 or dos

There are *some* utilties that will allow access to NTFS partitions from DOS
or Win98, at least as I recall. NTFS4DOS, NTFSDOS, and perhaps Bart PE(?),
or something along those lines, if my memory serves me.

> All you would have to have done was install XP on another drive
> then slave the old drive to it...and all the data would have been there
> Hope you kept the drive > The reason the data was lost was simply
> because you did not understand NTFS.
>
> No need to be paranoid...
> I'd leave your machine as NTFS and you can always recover the data from
> your win2k machine or from a live Linux cd
>
> That said: if you insist...you can convert NTFS to Fat32 by using
> Partition Magic. In theory it will work...but there is always
> the possibility of failure...especially with the boot sector...
> so I'd not risk it.

Same here.
And one can always create a bootable DOS flash disk for some dedicated DOS
applications, provided the PC isn't too old.

 

[Pegasus [MVP]]

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:edePlak5KHA.1888@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> philo wrote:
> There are *some* utilties that will allow access to NTFS partitions from
> DOS or Win98, at least as I recall. NTFS4DOS, NTFSDOS, and perhaps Bart
> PE(?), or something along those lines, if my memory serves me.

The Bart PE boot CD is built on the basis of WinXP and can access NTFS
partitions natively. This is why it is such a superb tool for
administrators.

 

[philo]

Bill in Co. wrote:
> philo wrote:
>> mister_friendly@the-newzgroups.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 107:47 +0300, John Doue <notwobe@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/27/2010

>snipped for brevity<
was doing.
>>>
>>> I spent a full 10 or 11 hours one day trying to get that thing to run.
>>> I used the repair cd, I tried to reinstall XP on top of the failed
>>> boot. I booted from Dos floppies, I even installed Win98 on another
>>> drive, and tried to connect the XP drive as a slave. No matter what I
>>> did, it was hopeless. He ended up losing everything.
>> Big mistake
>>
>> No way could you have accessed an NTFS partition from win98 or dos
>
> There are *some* utilties that will allow access to NTFS partitions from DOS
> or Win98, at least as I recall. NTFS4DOS, NTFSDOS, and perhaps Bart PE(?),
> or something along those lines, if my memory serves me.
>
>> All you would have to have done was install XP on another drive
>> then slave the old drive to it...and all the data would have been there
>> Hope you kept the drive > The reason the data was lost was simply
>> because you did not understand NTFS.
>>
>> No need to be paranoid...
>> I'd leave your machine as NTFS and you can always recover the data from
>> your win2k machine or from a live Linux cd
>>
>> That said: if you insist...you can convert NTFS to Fat32 by using
>> Partition Magic. In theory it will work...but there is always
>> the possibility of failure...especially with the boot sector...
>> so I'd not risk it.
>
> Same here.
> And one can always create a bootable DOS flash disk for some dedicated DOS
> applications, provided the PC isn't too old.
>
>

Yes there are many ways the OP could have recovered the data...
it was all still there...
he should have asked for help...as the data could have been easily and
quickly recovered...

I find stories like this a bit scary!