I've been hearing bad things... [Archive]

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goneaway

11-03-2002, 07:10 PM

about people's experiences with Click and Run. I've had more than one person ask me how to configure apt to get around using it because it often crashes and leaves packages in indeterminate states. I hope they're working on stabilizing it because at this point (with the promises about being able to run MS software being smoke and mirrors) Xandros is beating the pants off of them despite being the code base that Lindows is supposedly built on. I'm recommending that people use Synaptic or the Storm Package Manager and using apt-spy plus the full list of mirrors to set up apt sources for them.

TRN

11-03-2002, 07:42 PM

I've had more than one person ask me how to configure apt to get around using it because it often crashes and leaves packages in indeterminate states.

Well, I've never had the pleasure of running LindowsOS. I was thinking of buying it but do not have the money right now. Besides, Birdie will want SuSE 8.1 soon. She's been holding back asking because she didn't like 8.0. EMH hasn't even updated ML 8.2 to 9.0. She's quite happy with her box.

Now, is setting up sources.list on a LindowsOS system any different than from other .deb package based system?

And -- what is the directory structure relative to Xandros? Has anyone done a direct comparison?

robbie_n

11-03-2002, 07:51 PM

I have used Click-n-Run, and let me tell you, it's awful.

The interface is excellent, and there are some good ideas behind the system, for example the ability to pause and resume downloads, but the actual system sucks.

The GUI client is a little unstable (not too bad, but not good), and the special Lindows package lists are corrupt more often than otherwise. It's a nightmare for newbies. I had to think quick on numerous occasions, and I'm not exactly a spring chicken any more. For newbies - forget it.

If they can make CnR more stable and fix the package listing errors (as well as the 404 download url errors), then they will have a much better end product. But CnR needs a lot of work, and it isn't worth the asking price. For $99, you could get Xandros, or you could even buy Libranet and StarOffice full. Why would you bother with a system that doesn't work properly?

robbie_n

11-03-2002, 07:56 PM

Now, is setting up sources.list on a LindowsOS system any different than from other .deb package based system?

Exactly the same, I think - it's just that its keyed to software.lindows.com instead of the usual Debian mirrors. Xandros Networks uses the same type of modification.

And -- what is the directory structure relative to Xandros? Has anyone done a direct comparison?

Not yet. But Lindows is using Xandros Beta 1/2 (not sure which) code, updated to a CVS version of KDE 3.0.1 (Yes, CVS - I kid you not), so it should be pretty similar, excepting the differences between KDE 2.2.2 and KDE 3.0.

TRN

11-03-2002, 08:11 PM

Exactly the same, I think - it's just that its keyed to software.lindows.com instead of the usual Debian mirrors. Xandros Networks uses the same type of modification.

Well between the two distros, Xandros and LindowsOS, I've been been leaning toward the Xandros except that I can get hardware at the same time by buying the PCs at Walmart loaded with LindowsOS. Then again, Lycoris is pre-loaded on some hardware. Gesh. Can I borrow a few grand? :-D

robbie_n

11-03-2002, 10:29 PM

Can I borrow a few grand? :-D

As soon as I win the lottery :lol:

ladislav

11-04-2002, 04:49 AM

TRN

11-04-2002, 10:32 AM

Besides, Birdie will want SuSE 8.1 soon.

Why doesn't she just download it? I don't think the manuals changed much since 8.0 so she'll still be able to refer to them. Unless she feels strongly about supporting SuSE, which is a valid reason...

As always she'll support SuSE through the purchase :-D

However, you have a good idea. Maybe I'll suggest it to her (HINT Birdie !). She can take a look at it and then get a good feel for it prior to purchasing it.

Kraig

11-19-2002, 12:15 PM

I wonder if you could score a press copy from kevin@lindows.com for evaluation. I'm a Lindows user and like it a lot. CNR was very buggy but thats cleaned up now. Its an excellant distro. The girls would probably like it alot if they like Xandros. Nothing is easier to install software with than CNR. Plus the girls could set up there own software aisle. That way other kids could instll all of there favorite programs. :D

11-19-2002, 07:42 PM

Prevailing opinion is that Xandros is far ahead of Lindows in all areas except overblown hype. They do seem to inspire some fervor from a few individuals like Kraig who feel the need to evangelize everywhere they are tolerated.

robbie_n

11-19-2002, 08:11 PM

Now, now, be nice.

kraig was touting Click-n-Run's features, which leaves Xandros Networks for dead. I may not like Lindows much, but even I will tell you that Click-n-Run has become far more stable in recent versions. Now if only it wasn't so expensive :(

ladislav

11-19-2002, 09:27 PM

This is a quote by a Lindows spokesperson found at http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/19978.html:

"The Linux group is highly intelligent. They enjoy being able to compile and apt-get.... They don't have interest in Lindows; it'd be like asking an adult to slap training wheels on their bike."

I suppose that by frequeting sites such as TuxReports or PCLinuxOnline we all default to "not-stupid-enough-to-use-Lindows" category.

Of course, there are always exceptions to any rule...

robbie_n

11-19-2002, 09:54 PM

That depends on what your definition of "stupid" is.

I use Lycoris Desktop/LX, and that doesn't even come with a compiler by default (seperate disc). Further, there's almost no application choice whatsoever - you get what you're given. I like that; I'm no newbie, but I find Mandrake sometimes ugly and almost always confusing, and RedHat, well, too business-oriented.

My main disagreement with Lindows isn't based on the product itself any more - Click-n-Run is a good, solid product that delivers the power of apt-get with the simplicity of a single-click. I've always added a "when it works" on that until recently, but it's matured in the last little while.

However, I dislike its cost. Let's face it - $129 is expensive for something that, barring StarOffice and TuxRacer Deluxe, is just Debian with some fancy logos and a repackaged apt repository. Sure, Click-n-Run is easy, but $99 a year for a Synaptic replacement? I'm yet to be convinced. The combination of Libranet, StarOffice and TuxRacer Deluxe (the last now heavily discounted at $15) is only a few dollars more.

The wiser money would be better off with Xandros, whose new offering is a much more complete product out of the box and is more newbie-friendly than Lindows, which lacks the Xandros File Manager, all the Wizards and, of course, the updated CodeWeavers technology.

For those who despise point-and-click stuff, Libranet is my recommendation. But I'll be sticking with Lycoris ;-)

ladislav

11-19-2002, 10:34 PM

I think that Kraig's endless effort to promote Lindows would be better spent on Windows forums (if they exist). He knows pretty darn well that he will get no converts here or on PCLinuxOnline, yet he keeps on rambling about the same thing. All he does is irritate people. Then again, maybe that's what he wants to do.

I admire Kraig's dedication for something he believes in, but hey - he preaches to a wrong audience!

robbie_n

11-19-2002, 11:03 PM

I admire Kraig's dedication for something he believes in, but hey - he preaches to a wrong audience!

Now that I agree with.

Kraig

11-20-2002, 09:06 AM

There is an incredible amount of lies and fud spread about Lindows. Much of that has be generated on pclinuxonline. I can't stand propaganda. I know Lindows is a good product and will not stand by and let some trolls spread lies and FUD. Pclinuxonline ignores any positive Lindows stories like the major general release on monday that was ignored and only seems to want to post stories that trash it. Therefore people like me that know the truth have a responsibility to point it out. Besides when Mandrake goes under next year and Lindows pulls linux into the mainstream it will be fun to say i told you so. :)

11-20-2002, 12:27 PM

When someone fails to understand the motives of those around them. At one point Kraig helped maintain PCLinuxOnline. However, it was noticed that a large portion of his posts were advertising posts about Lindows. If Mike Robertson walked across the street two blocks from a computer show and to a wandering cub reporter that Lindows was offering a logout icon, it got posted by Kraig at PCLinux. Several folks asked that he tone it back some, and he responded with insults, unwarranted criticism and way more of his personal politics than anyone ever asked for. Eventually a parting of ways occurred between he and the others that maintain PCL.

Now, admittedly PCL is a bit Mandrake-centric, but I personally use RedHat and have never been made feel uncomfortable. Coverage of the recent RedHat release was balanced and comprehensive. Coverage of Lycoris and Xandros has been fair. AND, a reasonable amount of NEWS coverage of Lindows occurs. However, I don't think that PCL needs to offer unlimited free advertising to a purely commercial venture like Lindows. The objections that most people have about Lindows are clear and Lindows has not responded well to them. So be it, that is their choice. However, I will not listen to their roving proaganda-meister Kraig insulting and putting down a group of people, who tried to treat him with kindness and friendship, just because he didn't get his way. No one has put any FUD about Lindows up at PCL, but they also have not allowed the posting of false glowing reviews filled with promises of features and functionality that doesn't work. Nor is it the fault of PCL that Lindows has been less than upfront with the Linux community from the start.

It is not my intention with this post to insult or belittle Kraig, but it does become difficult when he goes after a great group of people like those at PCL. I believe that Kraig needs to take a new and fair look at the objections that his constant sales pitch brings out in people and perhaps re-evaluate. If that is not possible then perhaps he should just enjoy his fine Lindows machine and stop harassing the rest of us. The previous posters suggestion that he evangelize the Windows groups sounds good to me.

Thanks for your time. :)

ogman

11-20-2002, 12:30 PM

The post above is mine.....I thought I was logged in and I believe it is important to sign what you post.

Thanks

11-20-2002, 09:09 PM

Lies about Lindows started on PCLinuxOnline? Craig, when the Lindows PR machine was beginning to get into full swing, you abused your author / admin priviledges on PCLinuxOnline to promote Lindows. Since we parted ways, you've done nothing but drag our name through the mud. You've hurled insults at us on more than one occasion. Now you run to other forums to bad mouth us.

We haven't attacked Lindows. We haven't lied about Lindows. Now remember, what folks say in the comments section is separate from the actual post, but then... you take just as much advantage of that as everyone else.

I don't know what happened to you, man. I took you in when I was running GUI-Lords... despite the fact that many considered you a troll on existing forums. I believed that given the proper forum and authority, you could flourish and benefit yourself and the rest of the Linux community. For a while... a long while, that was true. You were great. Even after we merged with PCLinuxOnline, you were great. Then something happened. Something changed. For the life of me I can't figure out what. I don't attribute it to Lindows... I see your strong adoption of Lindows and its evangelistic methods as a symptom rather than a cause. But certainly something changed.

You began to argue with Tex, Yama and I more. You thought asking you to slow down on the Lindows posts (because the volume of it was upsetting our readers and us) was censorship. You began comparing your fellow authors to horrible foreign government political parties. I'm not saying we were all love and flowers, because we weren't. You'd really pissed us off a number of times, and sometimes our readers could see that... which is a shame it ever came to that.

But to run around to other forums to call claim we spread lies is just so friggin petty.

Here's what we at PCLinuxOnline think of Lindows. It's creepy to us. It's not what we are used to. It's business model doesn't sit well with us. It's CEO has a reputation that leaves a bad taste in our mouths. Is it great that Lindows is getting pre-installed on PC's? Yes. Why? Because it still is Linux. Would I rather other distributions would push as hard or harder at it, heck ya! Because I like the other distro's better. Lindows get's it's coverage at PCLinuxOnline... but it doesn't get nearly the amount of 'happy press' or 'cool press' with us as the others do because you already burned out our readers on it with your Lindows ad campaign. You... Not Lindows, really frazzled us (the authors) and our readers with all those posts. Only now are we getting a healthy number of pro-Lindows readers. And I attribute the delay of that to your bumpy last few months with us.

I don't know why you either hate us or are so angry with us... we offered you the chance to stay if you could tone it down on the Lindows posting... just to get it to a healthy level. You declined. Thought it was censorship. Thought it was unreasonable. So please, just accept your decision and move on. Leave us alone, please. I thought I could try and keep us all buds after the split, but I don't think so anymore. I won't speak for the others on this part... but take me off your Yahoo Messenger list, will you? I've stood here long enough and am tired of the verbal slaps in the face. I've waited long enough for you talk with me as a friend... but mostly what I get is Lindows news or discussions in Yahoo from you. Granted it's not often, but it's pretty much the only communications from you I get anymore. If I want to know about Lindows, I'll read it. I may even post it up on the site. But I don't need it under the guise of friendship. I don't like feeling used and insulted.

Now to everybuddy else reading this... Yup... We don't care much for Lindows. Now you can see why. But when they deserve their do for accomplishments, most of the time we'll publish it... despite the gut wrenching feeling that comes with clicking the post button when we do. Then in our comments, you'll see much personal opinion. Mine included. If we're wrong on something, rest assured Kraig has always corrected us. Infact, we couldn't get away with spreading lies about Lindows if we tried. Kraig is to busy policing the threads to let that happen. Pro-lindows users, you should at least admire his tireless and relentless defense of the product. I have to give him that.

Now back to Craig to sum up... Hrmmm, typed another paragraph, re-read it and thought better. I'll just end this way. I hope all is well with you, Craig. I hope someday we will all be close friends again. I miss the Craig that was so much fun.

*TheDarb
PCLinuxOnline

PS - If you want to confirm it's me, send me a private message on our website and I'll happily confirm this was my post.

11-20-2002, 09:30 PM

This is an exact quote from Cheryl Schwarzman - Lindows public relations director. Schwarzman admitted that longtime Linux users are not the company's market. "The Linux group is highly intelligent. They enjoy being able to compile and apt-get and wonderful things. They don't have interest in Lindows; it'd be like asking an adult to slap training wheels on their bike."

TRN

11-21-2002, 06:15 AM

Please excuse the fact that I've been busy with a credential class.

Tux Reports is to be a sanctuary for ALL penguins. While discourse is healthy and should be supported, I do not care for individuals being rude. Therefore, please refrain from attacking anyone's personal opinions. This goes for either side of the argument.

I have not made up my mind regarding Lindows and I do not know the history of the bad blood between some of the curators of PCLinuxOnline and any individuals. It's a terrible shame if there is any bad blood. However, Tux Reports is not here for that purpose. Arguing is not fun and this site is about GNU/Linux and the joy of using it.

Personally, I'm thinking of buying a copy or requesting a copy. EMH and Birdie have not asked for a copy. Birdie and EMH interviewed Mr. Robertson and were impressed by his style. However, he is not Lindows. LindowsOS is a product and must stand on it's own merits. With the release of LindowsOS 3.0, there are probably nice features that other distros would like to incorporate -- and that is healthy. Hopefully, Lindows will figure out how to change their operating as root - that alone causes pause. I'm sure they'll figure it out.

Hopefully, readers will understand that I'm requesting everyone to remain friendly and calm. Tux Reports supports everyone at Lindows, PCLinuxOnline, and all of the TR visitors.

Have a great day !

11-21-2002, 02:26 PM

Kraig

11-23-2002, 12:55 PM

This site is awesome becasue it lets its users post cool stuff about there favorite distibution with out getting flamed. I had very bad experiences at other sites that wanted to limit the cool stories to only one distribution and then only a few other token stories about other distributions just to seem fair. The Linux community is much bigger than one distribution. Troll posts and attempted censorship and flames will not supress others from trying different distributions besides Mandrake. In the end the best distribution will rise to the top. A few dedicated trolls can not prevent that from happening. Thats a cool thing. The truth has a way of making itself known. I think if you have a favorite distribution lets hear why you think its cool. Lets not attempt to suppress others voices. You tell me why you like your distribution and i'll tell you way i like mine. The community is much bigger than Mandrake or redhat or Ximian or Lindows.

robbie_n

11-23-2002, 02:49 PM

That's all we can ask of anyone, Kraig.

Constructive information and criticism is always welcome :-)

TRN

11-23-2002, 03:02 PM

Constructive information and criticism is always welcome :-)

A new teachers was standing in front of students on the first day of school. She explained that at 11:00 they were going to go to lunch. She explained the types of food, how long they had to eat, where to sit. She gave all of the instructions and then said, "OK. let's get in a line."

Kids started running around and there was absolute chaos. No one knew what to do and the poor teacher was confused. Finally a little one tugged on the teacher's skirt and said, "What's a line?"

Sometimes we forget to explain the obvious -- so I'm glad that you posted this robbie.

This site exists because there is a tremendous excitement in those of us who post here. I am worse than my kids when it comes to new toys in the GNU/Linux area. Sometimes my excitement is a bit too much and my daughters bring me back to reality.

If you find yourself so excited about something then post. We just ask that profanity and personal attacks be left at the door. Check in the ego -- and check out what others have to say. It's more fun when you discover that there are many penguins who have done great things with their GNU/Linux systems.

Anyway, I just wanted to post a little story about a classroom filled with excitement. And maybe use it as an analogy to this forum - a classroom filled with penguins trying to figure out where the food line is - and waiting patiently for the fish feeding to begin....

muskrat

12-18-2002, 04:52 PM

I have been watching all the hoopla about Lindows, I didn't know any of the specs as to that it's based on Xandros or any of that. But I'll say this much any OS that ask you to become a member to a libary inorder to get more apps, and then ask a yearly price for the membership to said libary is not an inexspensive OS.

It's riding in the same boat as MS almost.

I bought Mandrakes 8.1 if Birdie is going to down load an upgrade, the popular opion at Mandrakes fourm is 8.2 is much improved over .1 Just a thought. They tell me over there that a lot of my problems I wouldn't have if I had 8.2

So, in you alls opion Xandros rates right up there with or above Lindows! I'm asking because my Dad has been considering buying one of those Wal-mart boxes. My Brother is also looking for an OS they both have tried/or are going to try this distro I have.

Myself I'm looking at a newer distro also, been tossing around Xandros, SuSe, or this old faithfull Mandrakes 9.0

What do you think would be the best bet.

12-18-2002, 05:19 PM

and then ask a yearly price for the membership to said libary is not an inexpensive OS.
You mean like Mandrake club?

~snip by LPH~Please see rules of forum. Thank you.

What do you think would be the best bet.
I have tried Mandrake and Xandros and Lindows and i highly recommend Lindows. Its just a better deal. With mandrake and Xandros you don't have a CNR system for easy updating of applications and OS updates. Plus With Mandrake you have to pay 120 just to join the "club" and get Star Office6. Then you have to repay again for the next release. They don't even give you a copy. Not to mention if you pay you might not even get the CD's in the mail.

muskrat

12-19-2002, 06:57 AM

I proably shouldn't have posted to this topic, It was already in a close state to flame.

If I violated the fourms rules, then please for give me. I didn't intend to.
:cry:

12-19-2002, 05:47 PM

personally i've tried amny distros and haven't found one that has everything right yet. mandrake 9 for now but who knows what tomorrow will bring. i think instead of bickering over which distro is best maybe there should be some team work from users to get a desktop that can compete in the mainstream with windows. i like the small community that linux users have but i would like it better if linux could replace windows on the desktop of the average user better. now don't get me wrong i don't hate windows i just like linux better.

12-20-2002, 09:32 PM

Huh? I use LindowsOS full time and CNR works great for me. I think it's the best thing to have happened to Linux in a long time and is much needed.

Lindows.com recently conducted a survey about CNR from users, and here were the results (cut and pasted):

Click-N-Run Survey

How would you rate Click-N-Run?

Excellent (110) 41%
Very good (70) 26%
Good (45) 17%
Fair (19) 7%
Poor (8) 3%
Terrible (18) 7%

Total Votes: 270

My guess is those who rated it Poor or Terrible (only 10%) were on slower modem connections and would have the same problems with apt-get.

Mark

robbie_n

12-21-2002, 04:15 AM

Huh? I use LindowsOS full time and CNR works great for me. I think it's the best thing to have happened to Linux in a long time and is much needed.

I wouldn't say that Lindows is the best thing to have happened to Linux - I don't think any one development or project can lay claim to that honor.

WRT CnR, it has been continually improving. Some of the earlier comments made are no longer valid.

LPH or Kraig, could you please lock this topic? I think that if we want to continue to discuss this we should start afresh.

muskrat

12-21-2002, 08:25 AM

I agree!

I'm deslecting to recieve email notices on this tread because I don't want to be brought back here.