View Full Version : What's up with Mandrake-Linux?
Check out soem of the posts at MandrakeClub and MandrakeForum. Apparently MandrakeSoft has charged the credit cards of a bunch of people and are not delivering the product. They also seem to be refusing to answer emails from angry customers.
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/modules.php?name=Splatt_Forum
http://www.mandrakeforum.com/pollBooth.php?op=results&pollID=46&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1
LPH NOTE: This message title was edited to correct the spelling of Linux and to rearrange it to say Mandrake-Linux rather than Linu-Mandrake.
Kraig
11-24-2002, 05:30 PM
These folks have been having finacial problems for a while now. This is par for the course.
Kraig
11-24-2002, 05:43 PM
Mandrake charged these people in September but they haven't received anything including an email. that is just terrible. Paying customers deserve so much better than that. i would be extremely angry.
robbie_n
11-24-2002, 06:48 PM
These folks have been having finacial problems for a while now. This is par for the course.
Tell me about. They lost the initive in 1999 or so - paradoxically about the same time they went public - and haven't been the same since. Companies like Lindows and Lycoris have taken the Linux Desktop to a whole new level, and even SuSE and RedHat are now catching up first.
I think part of the problem is that Mandrake wants to be everything to everyone, and end up being not quite there for just about everyone.
As for charging the credit cards and not delivering, you'd think that if production wasn't guaranteed, they'd still call it a "pre-order" ;-)
Kraig
11-24-2002, 07:07 PM
Ditto i jumped off of mandrake a while back. They just ignore customers and there desktop has no consistency. KDE by default but config utilities are written in gtk. Plus its flooded with apps. Its like a cluttered lawn with to much junk. Lycoris and Lindows are in a whole different category. Xandros and Lycoris and Lindows are consistent and clean. Lycoris just needs the choice of more applications in its CNR like application and both Xandros and Lycoris need to get KDE upto date. Then we could have a real competition. The old kitchen sink distros Suse, Redhat and Mandrake are old news as far as i'm concerned. thats just my opinion though.
robbie_n
11-24-2002, 07:11 PM
You'd be surprised how good RedHat 8.0 is in its Personal Desktop installation mode. No KDE at all (just the libs), but a whole suite of apps in about 1.2Gb. It's not as good as Xandros, Lycoris or Lindows, but it's such a difference from the old 7.3 Workstation installation that I was very surprised indeed.
Kraig
11-24-2002, 07:18 PM
They lack vision and won't go the extra mile in doing things like including nvidia and winmodem drivers and little things like including the flash plugin and usable java. They even disabled mp3 play in the last version. they are plagued by to much ideology and not enough understanding of regular users needs. They have a bad case of stallmanism. Redhat and mandrake act more like political parties and not enough like businesses if you ask me.
robbie_n
11-24-2002, 07:37 PM
They lack vision and won't go the extra mile in doing things like including nvidia and winmodem drivers and little things like including the flash plugin and usable java.
Oh, RedHat has a vision alright - for the corporate desktop rather than the home PC. Mandrake, on the other hand, hasn't had an original thought since 1999 IMHO.
Redhat and mandrake act more like political parties and not enough like businesses if you ask me.
Mandrake doesn't act like anything any more. That's the problem. Now, Red Hat does act like a political party - removing the Taiwanese flag because it's a "bug" for goodness sake :roll:
Kraig
11-24-2002, 07:44 PM
I think there's going to be a lot of people shocked when they go under. That's going to create big waves. I wonder what distro most users will switch to? My guess is Redhat because its the most similar but on the other hand those are mostly KDE users. Suse should benefit from a Mandrake door closing also.
robbie_n
11-24-2002, 11:41 PM
I think there's going to be a lot of people shocked when they go under. That's going to create big waves.
I notice that you say "when", not "if". Isn't that just a bit fatalistic - even for Mandrake?
I wonder what distro most users will switch to? My guess is Redhat because its the most similar but on the other hand those are mostly KDE users. Suse should benefit from a Mandrake door closing also.
I suspect that the winner might be Red Hat as well. Red Hat has the same problems with bloat (a lot of Mandrake users actually like this :-x) and is freely downloadable. The missing functionality is added back in easily enough. By comparison, SuSE has no downloadable ISOs (and installing via FTP is out for most people), Lycoris is too selective for many (which is a pity for them IMHO ;-)) and uses site licensing, and Lindows and Xandros aren't freely downloadable in any form. So Red Hat may well be the winner.
Either that or some volunteer group will start picking up the mess MandrakeSoft left behind :roll:
Sorry, but after reading these threads I've gotta get this off my chest!
Until 10 days ago I was one of the many frustrated customers who hadn't got their pre-order and I agree that Mandrake have messed up big time by underestimating the amount of orders. Not emailing people (at least) is bad news. I also understand that they've taken more people on to clear the backlog and even Deno who runs MandrakeClub is pushing for more info to customers, but at the moment it's "all hands to the pump" to get orders out.
I hope Mandrake will learn their lesson from this.
BUT, I think it's a bit premature to start picking over Mandrake's bones - it hasn't gone under yet and there's a LOT of people supporting it as well as having a large community in itself.
I'm very surprised that people criticise Mandrake for it's pro-Open Source stance and the fact that it has got too much in it's distro. You can't knock a Linux distro for believing in Open Source and what it stands for - without it there wouldn't be GNU/Linux! If there's too many apps on your desktop - uninstall them! At least you have choice, which is what Open Source is all about !! And is it really a bad thing for a Linux company to try to not commercialise too much? .....Or is it better to have a distro that bases it's business approach as far as possible along the MS business model?!
Mandrakesoft have/are making mistakes, but so has Red Hat, SuSe, etc etc. Please stop digging Mandrake's grave.
Phew - I feel better now! :wink:
Dutch
mandrake is software that simple works. Printer and internet are as easy to set up as in windows. It is easy to get rid of unwanted packages and the kitchen sink. Mandrakes only fault is that it is not as easy to keep up to date as debian. If Mandrake shuts its doors the linux comunity will be the poorer for it. To date it is the only freely available distro that is usable for a person coming over from windows. KDE is also a better windows manager for people new to linux. If linux is to prosper distro's in the mandrake mould must succed
robbie_n
11-25-2002, 02:48 AM
I agree that it's a bit early to call Mandrake dead yet. You'll notice that I said:
I notice that you say "when", not "if". Isn't that just a bit fatalistic - even for Mandrake?
mandrake is software that simple works. Printer and internet are as easy to set up as in windows. It is easy to get rid of unwanted packages and the kitchen sink. Mandrakes only fault is that it is not as easy to keep up to date as debian. If Mandrake shuts its doors the linux comunity will be the poorer for it. To date it is the only freely available distro that is usable for a person coming over from windows. KDE is also a better windows manager for people new to linux. If linux is to prosper distro's in the mandrake mould must succed
Mandrake is old news with new software. It has ceased to innovate in the way that Xandros, Lindows and Lycoris - and now even RedHat - have. While the bloat is very annoying, it's not really the issue.
The Mandrake installation system is now extremely dated. Compared to the easy wizard-based interface offered by Lycoris' Lyzard, the idiot-proof (I mean that in a good way) five click Lindows installation, and the dead-easy Xandros install, DrakX is outdated, complex and ugly. I can go into more detail on this point on request.
The software in Mandrake is pretty much standard fare. With companies like Lycoris and Xandros - and even Red Hat, but specifically not Lindows - standardizing their interfaces and deciding on a single desktop environment and a standard look and feel, Mandrake is decidedly behind the times. Its configuration tools are no better than anybody else's nowdays, and they're written in ugly old GTK+ 1.x to boot. Furthermore, their custom control panels are seperated from the window manager control centers in a way that all of the other aforementioned distributions have now moved away from. In terms of the sheer availability of applications, Mandrake Download Edition is no better than Red Hat, and its commercial editions are still not as complete as Click-n-Run. (Lycoris, of course, has an entirely different philosophy on this score, and Xandros Networks is still in beta and not ready for proper comparisons as yet.)
You people are just spreading a lot of FUD.
-- snip -- N -- replace --
Personal Attacks Pulled by LPH
NOTE: Danny and anyone else. This board is a sanctuary. We do not tolerate personal attacks. Please refrain from attacking anyone personally. We are all penguins. The remaining portion of the message remains because it has your opinion and some interesting ideas. Please feel free to discuss the subject. Anyone wishing to post should read the rules regarding posting in the About Tux Reports. Sorry that Danny's words had to be snipped but there are children who read these messages.
-- snip -- N - replace --
-what are the great innovations of the other companies?
- If you would have tried Lindows, you would know that it is, for instance, impossible to use photoshop/word/explorer. Ironically, this is possible with the wine version from mandrakeclub (the membership of which is cheaper than lindows, and it will be soon on all mirrors).
- Xandros/Lycoris: still not there by a long way. Try to immidate and build upon research of specifically debian, redhat and mandrake. Too little software, to old software. A few nice features. Definatly not powerful enough for most people.
The standardizing interfaces is also a matter of debate. A few points:
- The way RH did it pissed of developers, that is a dangerous thing to do.
- Even if you give it the same colour, it will never have the same feel.
- Mandrake may go this way as well, if and this will interest you, it is found that their userbase actually like that approach.
Have you tried new DrakX? I do not think it is outdated, complex or ugly? Next version there will be a gtk2 port, that kind of thing just needs a bit of time. There is nothing wrong with a gtk1.2 program, ever used evolution?
- As for the click'n run:
On mandrakeclub you can request any app you want. When there are enough volunteers, you will get nice rpms.
also, java, flash, you name it, is available there. If you can pay the Lindows fee, you can also pay the $60 club membership, and have the apps today, and not in a distant future as Xandros promises.
In additions, the mdk community sites like plf.zarb.org or provide you, if you are from non-us country, with all kinds of new, high quality multimedia apps. Definitaly better and more up to date than in any of the other distro's.
as for the credit card thingy: that is a bad mistake to make. Luckily, it happened in less than 1% of the orders, and AFAIK the problem will be soon resolved.
In summary: I have not seen a single good innovation in the other distro's you name, and mdk continues to provide me with the most powerful and functional desktop. I may have some critique myself, but in contrast to you, I try to fix it myself, instead of go whining about it.
Danny
I preordered, and got my DVD in a timely manner.
Apparently, the reason for the delays is that the Mandrakestore was swamped, and they have had problems just getting all the orders out.
Unfortunately, the majority of the complaints are anonymous, and have no information, so there is no way to tell from the poll how many people are still waiting.
Apparently there was a set of users who accidentally got forgotten for a few weeks, but apparently their orders are all out.
While I would prefer Mandrake to bill only when they ship, I (and many of the people commenting on the poll) are very happy costomers.
Finally, I would think twice about putting any trust in what Kraig (aka flame everyone but Lindows and Lycoris) posts. If you follow pclinuxonline.com and mandrakeforum.com you would already know that of course. [Insert by LPH - Ranger - we ask that issues be discussed and not people. Thank you. Everyone has something valuable to contribute as long as we are polite.]
ranger
These folks have been having finacial problems for a while now. This is par for the course.
Yes, they didn't get (which they continue to lose ) lots of IPO money like Redhat did in the bubble.
And they don't keep being bailed out by IBM (SuSE) and having to merge with bigger distros to keep any developers (Conectiva, SCO/Caldera, Turbo).
And they don't leach off Debian (Lindows, Xandros).
That leaves Gentoo and Lycoris, neither of which I have managed to try yet. Gentoo isn't quite useable for a newbie (from what I hear).
FYI, development is now more focused on Bugzilla, but quite well so that you can reply to a bug by email, and it gets kept in Bugzilla. Bugs are getting swift attention.
The biggest thing you have to decide though, is are you using linux to get away from proprietary software, or just because it's not Microsoft. In which case you may as well use Solaris Intel.
Kraig
11-25-2002, 07:16 AM
Lets look at that they didn't even email these people and in fact ignored there requests for weeks. There just no excuse. These people where paying customers not just credit card numbers. It seems that Mandrake needed the short term cash more than it needed the longer term return customers and thats a huge problem. I went to the form and saw many peoples posts that even left there transaction numbers only to be ignored. Thats not how you run a company. At lindows the company president often personnally answers peoples questions on the forum. They at least understand that tbhese people are consumers and not just users.
They lack vision and won't go the extra mile in doing things like including nvidia and winmodem drivers and little things like including the flash plugin and usable java.
Actually, if you happen to either
1)buy the distro (like you do Lindows and Lycoris and Xandros)
2)Join the club (which you kind of have to with Lindows to use anything)
you do get NVidia and winmodem drivers out the box.
Java and flash may not be selected by default in a commercial version, but it's trivial to install them from the DVD/CDs. (JRE1.4.0, Flash 5.0, Acrobat 5.0.6.).
They even disabled mp3 play in the last version.
Not, that's Redhat 8.0, which isn't really a desktop distro (just RH7.3 with a new theme and reasonable fonts, there's much more to a desktop distro than that).
Kraig, have you actually tried Mandrake 9.0??? It doesn't seem like it. Do you know that they ship with a DVD player (ok, you can only play unencrypted DVDs unless you install stuff from http://plf.zarb.org, but I think that's understandeable).
they are plagued by to much ideology and not enough understanding of regular users needs. They have a bad case of stallmanism. Redhat and mandrake act more like political parties and not enough like businesses if you ask me.
So, you think open-source is a bad idea, and would prefer linux to be more like commercial unix (which is what it will be if you pull the open-source and community aspects from it)?
ranger
Mandrakes only fault is that it is not as easy to keep up to date as debian.
That is apparently (since 9.0) no longer the case. A lot of work (which no-one would see) went into urpmi and perl-URPM for 9.0, which should allow it to upgrade to 9.1 on the fly (just one reboot needed if there is a new kernel) effortlessly.
Of course, people don't see this because
1)Everyone else leeches off Debian's apt (Lindows, Xandros, SuSE and the rest of the Undesirable Linux crowd)
2)Redhat has nothing which approaches this, unless you install apt (once again leeching off Debian).
So, sometimes the things you don't see are the most significant?
Also, I don't see any other distro auto-mounting removeable memory devices (those Disk-on-key things) like Mandrake does. I guess that's not a useability enhancement??
ranger
(at this rate I'm going to have to make an account).
Kraig
11-25-2002, 07:49 AM
the mdk community sites like plf.zarb.org or provide you, if you are from non-us country, with all kinds of new, high quality multimedia apps. Definitely better and more up to date than in any of the other distro's.
That's great that Mandrake has community sites with free downloads. That is simply the minimum of what should be expected. Lycoris and Lindows have these also. There cool and neat site but that's not why i use Lycoris or Lindows. I like these distros because they have a vision of what there products need to be to take on Microsoft. Mandrake is simply developing Mandrake for the already entrenched geek community. They're just not going to get a single percentage point away from Microsoft . I don't want a niche market i want Linux to have a big enough share so Walmart has it own Linux software aisle. I want the latest games to be released for Linux at the same time as there Windows counterparts. Mandrake will not make this happen.
ranger
(at this rate I'm going to have to make an account).
Go for it ;-)
And thank you for contributing to the discussion. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.
Kraig
11-25-2002, 07:55 AM
So, you think open-source is a bad idea
Hmm i never said nor do i think that. I think open source is a wonderful idea. Mandrake is not the be all end all of open source. Don't confuse the open source movement with the Free software movement. The two are seperate movments with different aims. For instance Linus Torvald is a proponent of the open source movement while Richard Stallman is a proponent of free software.
they ship with a DVD player (ok, you can only play unencrypted DVDs unless you install stuff from http://plf.zarb.org, but I think that's understandeable).
ranger
Ranger,
That link comes up bad. Would you mind being more specific as to which DVD player you reference and are there other sites?
I'm curious because I tend to use Ogle, and the sound / picture seem to be in better sink.
Just curious.
Kraig
11-25-2002, 08:32 AM
Lindows has of course the debian downloads they of course work however i would'nt try updating kde with them and http://www.lindowsdownload.com/ and Lycoris has its own community site with downloads.
[quote] Mandrake is simply developing Mandrake for the already entrenched geek community.
Kraig,
With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. Mandrake is constantly winning good reviews online and in mags because it is "user friendly". So much so it gets a lot of stick on some forums because it is dismissed as 'just good for newbies' in spite of the fact that it has a fully functioning Linux system behind the hand-holding.
You can't have it both ways.
You like Lycoris (or whatever), other people like Mandrake, and we ALL would like to see Linux aisles in shops - so there's no need to criticise ANY distro just for the sake of it.
By the way, I am NOT a geek. Just for the record. :roll:
Dutch
Kraig
11-25-2002, 11:41 AM
And they don't leach off Debian (Lindows, Xandros).
Mandrake is to Redhat what Lindows and Xandros are to Debian. At least Lindows contributes to the debian project. I don't think i've ever heard of mandrake contributing to redhat LOL.
Moulinneuf
11-25-2002, 02:53 PM
That link comes up bad.
http://plf.zarb.org/
there is a , added to the previous link
http://nanardon.homelinux.org/urpmi.setup/
you might whant to try this script its a very nice script that will let you select from a list of source and add a list of source to urpm and rpmdrake.
-----
On the Mandrakestore problem If some people still have problem you can always use the Mandrakeforum to comment about your lack of answers as a last resort , If it happen to be a true problem dont worry about user commenting on you or saying you are not at the right place if you feel you have a problem. Eventually someone in charge will see it and answer it.
-----
Finally, I would think twice about putting any trust in what Kraig (aka flame everyone but Lindows and Lycoris) posts. If you follow pclinuxonline.com and mandrakeforum.com you would already know that of course.
I second that. you can see the proof of is Mandrake Bashing in this very post is interest is not in helping or fixing the problem people might have with mandrakestore but in Bashing Mandrake and promote is distribution of the day.
http://plf.zarb.org/
there is a , added to the previous link
http://nanardon.homelinux.org/urpmi.setup/
you might whant to try this script its a very nice script that will let you select from a list of source and add a list of source to urpm and rpmdrake.
Thanks for the information. That link works ;-)
My eyes are getting old .. :oops:
Kraig
11-25-2002, 03:55 PM
Linux and Main (http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291&mode=&order=0&thold=0) has picked up the story. What a sham these nieve Mandrake Club members giving these guys money to support the company only to get screwed.
Linux and Main telephoned Mandrake's Pasadena, California, office to provide the company opportunity to respond to the user complaints, but the call was answered by a machine that said to leave a message, and, "If you're calling to check on the status of an order, please send an email message to serviceeu@mandrakestore.com."
I noticed that Mandrake community news letter came out yesterday. It started out with this quote.
It's already Christmas at MandrakeStore!
MandrakeStore is celebrating the holidays early this year by offering
FREE shipping to the USA, Canada and Europe for any orders that total
$50 or more, and 50% OFF shipping for the rest of the world (or for
totals less than $50).
I find thats an interesting offer "free shipping". I wonder when these people will actually get there product on Easter?
I guess the figure why ship the product when they already have the money.
robbie_n
11-25-2002, 06:01 PM
Personal Attacks Pulled by LPH
Thanks LPH.
-what are the great innovations of the other companies?
Lindows: A super-easy front-end to apt-get that blows Synaptic out of the water
Xandros: The Xandros file manager, Xandros installer with integrated NTFS resizer, also the small matter of the 15,000+ patches added to both KDE and the various bundled applications.
Lycoris: Lycoris defined the modern Desktop Linux. Period. Specific innovations include the first ever attempt at a unified look and feel, the My Linux System, the Network Browser, the unified Control Center with all system control applets available from the one place, the Remote Access Controller, the one-click firewall, Iris - which, if you followed the OSNews interview with Joseph Cheek, was actually conceived either at the same time or even (maybe) before Click-n-Run was - the slimmed down application set decisions, Video Recovery Mode, the graphical Add Hardware Wizard and so forth.
I know most about Lycoris, so I'm probably being unfair to Lindows and Xandros, but you get my point.
- If you would have tried Lindows, you would know that it is, for instance, impossible to use photoshop/word/explorer. Ironically, this is possible with the wine version from mandrakeclub (the membership of which is cheaper than lindows, and it will be soon on all mirrors).
I'm a bit of a Lindows critic (as Kraig will tell you ;-)), and this is one of the reasons why. People who envisaged Lindows as a Linux OS that could run Windows software have been sadly disappointed. I recommend Xandros instead. That said, Click-n-Run - while expensive - begins to make up for this.
- Xandros/Lycoris: still not there by a long way. Try to immidate and build upon research of specifically debian, redhat and mandrake. Too little software, to old software. A few nice features. Definatly not powerful enough for most people.
Lycoris is not powerful enough for some people, I agree. It's targeted at non-technical users who don't want to be burdened with having to learn Linux. Here they have succeeded brilliantly. It's a question of focus.
With regards to Xandros, I respectfully disagree. Xandros has the full power of Debian behind it (as does Lindows, for that matter). Think of it as a clone of Libranet that's dead easy to install and use.
The standardizing interfaces is also a matter of debate. A few points:
- The way RH did it pissed of developers, that is a dangerous thing to do.
- Even if you give it the same colour, it will never have the same feel.
- Mandrake may go this way as well, if and this will interest you, it is found that their userbase actually like that approach.
The means: I agree that Red Hat acted badly. That doesn't mean that we can't find gentler ways of achieving the same (good) outcome.
The look and feel: I was surprised how good the BlueCurve was. With a bit more refinement (expect it in 8.1), the applications could look almost identical to the non-technical user.
Mandrake going this way: Good for them! However, this serves to illustrate my point that Mandrake is no longer innovating. The old pattern was that Mandrake did new things that Red Hat later adopted as their own - now that's being reversed.
Have you tried new DrakX? I do not think it is outdated, complex or ugly? Next version there will be a gtk2 port, that kind of thing just needs a bit of time. There is nothing wrong with a gtk1.2 program, ever used evolution?
I do use Evolution, and I agree that it needs updating to GTK+ 2.0. I dislike DrakX for two major reasons, none of which relate to its GTK version:
- Look and feel: An installer should have a Wizard-like interface, with <Back and Forward> buttons. Examples of Wizard-based installers include Red Hat's Anaconda, the Xandros installer, and Caldera's Lizard. The DrakX interface is unnecessarily complex and confusing to new users. Its dialogs are small and very cluttered and the dialogs are cramped and often confusing, all of which makes for a confusing experience for many new and even not-so-new users.
- Design flaws: The mouse detection phase is, to be honest, silly. If other distributions can detect a mouse without having to move the wheel, why should Mandrake stick to this counter-intuitive behaviour? Also, the decision to put the X configuration at the end of the installation is very bad thinking - a flaw shared by just about all installation systems bar Lizard. This is because X configuration is the cause of most problems. Better to discover the problems before deleting Windows or resizing partitions, rather than long after. Plus the new 9.0 bootloader dialog is badly thought out.
- As for the click'n run:
On mandrakeclub you can request any app you want. When there are enough volunteers, you will get nice rpms.
also, java, flash, you name it, is available there. If you can pay the Lindows fee, you can also pay the $60 club membership, and have the apps today, and not in a distant future as Xandros promises.
In additions, the mdk community sites like plf.zarb.org or provide you, if you are from non-us country, with all kinds of new, high quality multimedia apps. Definitaly better and more up to date than in any of the other distro's.
I agree that Click-n-Run is overpriced. That said, with both Lindows and Xandros, you can tap into the Debian repositories for free by editing the apt-get sources file.
In contrast to you, I try to fix it myself, instead of go whining about it.
I suggest you visit www.lycoris.org, where our community members are constantly striving to improve the distribution, including hunting down some major bugs in recent weeks. I'm not trying to fix Mandrake because I gave it up for Desktop/LX instead.
Kraig
11-25-2002, 06:21 PM
I agree that Click-n-Run is overpriced. That said, with both Lindows and Xandros, you can tap into the Debian repositories for free by editing the apt-get sources file.
With Click-N-run you not only get the nicest most user friendly application finder and installer on the planet you also get software worth more than the service itself. Don't believe me? Whats Star Office 6 worth? Around 65 bucks and whats Tux Racer Deluxe worth? Around 25 bucks and thats not all of it. Hancom Spreadsheet is also there and a great photo editing program called Photogenetics. (http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_details.php?id=9104)Which is itself worth 79.95. So all CNR pays for itself plus not to mention all the great open source apps that it carries and keeps upto date. Pretty sone Lindows will even have an iDrive funtion for storage space and the ability to store setting so when you install Lindows on a new machine you can just CNR your new settings. The onlly thing in the Ball park Is lycoris/LX's CNR type system but with far far less applications. I havn't even mention aisles where users can group there favorite applications together so other people can quickly CNR them. Like craigs favorite Business applications or Kids applications.
robbie_n
11-25-2002, 06:32 PM
Like I said elsewhere in my mammoth post, it's getting better. The main issue with the bundled applications is that they're not worth quite what the recommended retail price is. This is because you're getting the titles as OEM software - there's no manuals and, most importantly, no ability to move to another OS (Linux or otherwise) and carry your purchased software with you. With the boxed copy of Photogenics, you can change Linux distros twice a day and only be troubled by the need to reinstall the program; with a StarOffice 6.0 box, you can install the Windows and Solaris from the same CD. Tux Racer's box also includes a Windows version for no extra cost, and is just as portable across Linux distributions.
And, as Microsoft will tell you, OEM software is usually just this side of 1/2 of the retail price. How else could Lindows afford to pay the costs and still make a profit?
So despite the fact that there is value there, it's not quite as advertised. That said, as the number of true commercial applications in the Warehouse increases, its value will increase (providing the subscription cost does not rise). Just be wary of trumpeting too loudly at present ;-)
Kraig
11-25-2002, 06:36 PM
How else could Lindows afford to pay the costs and still make a profit?
They are buying software licences in bulk. They are going to offer a service as well called Click-N-Buy where users and pay and install software also at a big discount. They plan on having titles like Kapital and full commercial games. It will be very cool.
robbie_n
11-25-2002, 06:41 PM
The more useful commercial software they pack into the Warehouse, the better its value proposition becomes.
I really can't beleive all this Mandrake bashing but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. But still the facts are indisputable; Mandrake is the most popular linux desktop distro going, overwhelmingly so:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3606633376.html
They must be doing something that a lot of people like. You may not like it and fortunately you have many options in Linux to choose from.
These folks have been having finacial problems for a while now. This is par for the course.
Well, well isn't that Kraig again?
[edited by LPH]
-- snip --
Sorry but we do not permit personal attacks. You are welcome to stick to the topic.
How else could Lindows afford to pay the costs and still make a profit?
They are buying software licences in bulk. They are going to offer a service as well called Click-N-Buy where users and pay and install software also at a big discount. They plan on having titles like Kapital and full commercial games. It will be very cool.
Ah, I guess this kind of answers the question: they are paying you... Ah well, "jedem das seine".
[edited by LPH]
http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291
And we thought M$ had dodgy marketing tactics... ;-)
I really can't beleive all this Mandrake bashing but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Apparently this thread has become a Mandrake bashing thread. And that is disappointing. I'm considering shutting it down.
Please ! I personally happen to like MandrakeSoft and have great respect for them. EMH used several releases for 2 years and just recently switched to Xandros. But she is considering going back to Mandrake-Linux because she is used to it. She loves pulling down new software and playing with it -- especially anything KDE centric.
If you disagree with a business decision or something in the distro then there isn't a problem posting but all of this ranting about individuals is silly. Please act like adults. All opinions are valuable.
Kraig
11-26-2002, 03:50 PM
Ah, I guess this kind of answers the question: they are paying you
Yea I wish i was getting paid. The only people that are paying me is the American tax paying public via the US Navy. Its funny though that when i was pro mandrake no one accused me of being paid. Its only when i decided a different distro was better that now the accusations fly that i'm getting paid. Maybe the trolls should argue why i'm wrong and not personally attack. IPersonal attacks show that you don't have arguments of substance.
robbie_n
11-26-2002, 06:03 PM
Apparently this thread has become a Mandrake bashing thread. And that is disappointing. I'm considering shutting it down.
Hmmm... that would be my fault. Oops! Sorry about that.
Just to repeat myself for a moment: I believe that Mandrake has stopped innovating and needs to rework certain aspects of its OS.
Now to move on: That doesn't mean that everything in Mandrake is bad. It's still got world-class software such as OpenOffice, Mozilla and the KDE suite of applications; it's still relatively easy to install (if a little on the counter-intuitive side); it has a huge user community that can help to make up for a lot of its shortcomings out of the box with additional software. Mandrake is still a very valid choice - it's just that I believe that some of the other offerings are better by comparison for the reasons I've outlined previously.
Everyone is entitled to disagree with me in a constructive manner if they so wish.
(Thanks for drawing me back from the brink, LPH ;-))
A few comments about Mandrake 9 from a recent Linux mag (LinuxFormat):-
"hard drive preparation is second to none thanks to the excellent Diskdrake"
Installation via ftp and then as upgrade - "both worked flawlessly"
"This is the only distro we have noticed that detects stuff like a graphics tablet during setup"
"..still arguably the best solution for desktop users"
I find it hard to see how it can be said that Mandrake isn't innovating - it's basing it's distro on Open Source software and constantly wins good reviews for making Linux accessible to joe public - for instance with an Installer that's quicker than Windo$e.
There are different distros as well as different personal tastes. But there's no need to bash ANY distro just because it's not your own personal favourite.
A few comments about Mandrake 9 from a recent Linux mag (LinuxFormat):-
"hard drive preparation is second to none thanks to the excellent Diskdrake"
Installation via ftp and then as upgrade - "both worked flawlessly"
"This is the only distro we have noticed that detects stuff like a graphics tablet during setup"
"..still arguably the best solution for desktop users"
I find it hard to see how it can be said that Mandrake isn't innovating - it's basing it's distro on Open Source software and constantly wins good reviews for making Linux accessible to joe public - for instance with an Installer that's quicker than Windo$e.
There are different distros as well as different personal tastes. But there's no need to bash ANY distro just because it's not your own personal favourite.
Well said ! <clapping hands> I wish you had registered so that I (and others) know who to thank.
Dutch
11-27-2002, 05:04 AM
I had registered ;-) (but too angry to log on)!!
Dutch
MandrakeClub member
I had registered ;-) (but too angry to log on)!!
Dutch
MandrakeClub member
Oh my ! That isn't good. No one should be too angry to log on to this site !
I'm so extremely sorry. If anyone has offended you then it is my fault for not moderating the discussion better. Please accept my apologies. I'll try harder.
Please feel comfortable in expressing your opinions regarding GNU/Linux as well as your experiences.
Dutch
11-27-2002, 11:20 PM
You're moderating it fine, LPH - what I meant was I was in too much of a rush to answer, to log in ;-) My fault, not yours!
I'll keep taking the tablets....:)
Dutch
darkstar
11-28-2002, 06:27 AM
I've been sitting in the background reading this whole thread about how Mandrake is making mistakes. Well, I feel I have to put my two cents in. I am now and will continue to be a Mandrake Club member. I also ordered the CDs from them and I also wait. I think the thing here to remember is that it's FREE SOFTWARE!!! It also has a very strong fan base and peope who help support it as well as develop new apps for it...again FREE! I don't recall seeing anything like that from Micro$oft, unless I missed something. Even if I don't get the cds I ordered, I will think of it as a contribution to the cause. If you think about it, I could do this 4 or 5 more times and still spend less then one copy of XP! Mandrake and it's following are doing a fine job. It is constantly getting good reviews and has passed Red Hat as the most popular. They must be doing something right!!
After reading most of the comments in the thread, I just HAD to put in my .2 worth.
Real quick, my own Linux background:
Red Hat from 3.5 to 6.0
Mandrake 6.5 to 9.0
SuSE 7.0 to 8.1
Evil Entity
Peanut Linux
Debian 3.0r0
Progeny 1.0
Gentoo
Knoppix
ASP
IcePack
Caldera
Conectiva
whew! :shock:
Ok, having said that, I think I have at least SOME clue to what I'm talking about. There is not ONE linux out there for any ONE person. Unlike the un-named OS :evil: that we have left to GET to linux, here in linux land we have a choice. Out of all formentioned Distro's I tried... I was in love with Mandrake till 9.0. RedHat 7.3 and 8.0 pissed me off for video reasons, while Progeny though it rocked, is now gone :cry: SuSE I couldn't get to network correctly on my router, etc etc etc..
What I'm saying is that unlike that evil OS :evil: Linux is NOT supposed to be everything for everyone. It's supposed to be about choice. What you want, when you want it, and how you want it. :D Isn't that what we all wanted in the first place?
Let's not splinter the linux community over GASP :shock: KDE or GNOME, or MY Distro is better than your distro kind of crap.. it's not what the idea behind Linux is all about.
For my .2, I use Debian. For no other reason than apt-get install "software" just rox! 8) I got tired of the RPM hell, but hey.. Strait Debian is NOT for everyone, but I love it :)
Ok, off muh soap box :)
and next time I'll register .. cheers
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